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Tuition Breaks and Tomchei Shabbos
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amother
Melon


 

Post Wed, May 15 2024, 2:42 am
Oh and we are open that DH has mental health issues and needs therapy, kid needs OT, another needs meds for a medical condition...
Because while I hate it, I know that too many try to cheat the system. I hate that people lie and cheat and basically steal from the community.
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amother
Green


 

Post Wed, May 15 2024, 8:52 am
B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:
blacken out sensitive names if you need to.
As you get older you will learn that you are special but not unique to the extent that others don't have your very same and human problems.

Dear, I am older. So here are some insights from a person who has extensive life experiences.

I have learned that the more you keep private things private the better you are. You never know where and how it will surface.

I have learned that good intentions dont often have good outcomes. People can talk even without meaning to, respond unawaringly to subconscious info, and drop clues here and there without realizing. The Torah exalts privacy, not oversharing or creeping into others private lives.

I have also learned that people often promote things without critical analysis or in-depth understanding - and that it often comes back to bite their very selves.

I have also learned that when you give a person/organization a finger, they often demand a hand.

I have also learned that words necessarily don't match peoples action. And people that have access to private info can give in to their temptation to be nosy. (HIPAA became law for a reason.)

I have also learned that even the most disciplined person can fall prey to temptation. I believe our Torah says this as well.

I also have learned that nothing in our lives is guaranteed, but our inner tools is what help us navigate these challenges. Among those inner tools are self-respect, dignity and the view of how others treat you. What the schools are doing now are stripping the folks of these when they are already down.

I have also learned that when it comes to money, people are very creative with their rationalization to excuse inappropriate actions. That's what we have right now.

All the school's excuses are just rationalization for them to take the easier route rather than setting up an appropriate approach. If the Torah is our guide, why not use it instead if working around it? No matter how many people are gaming the system, it still isn't right.
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amother
Chambray


 

Post Wed, May 15 2024, 8:57 am
amother Green wrote:
Dear, I am older. So here are some insights from a person who has extensive life experiences.

I have learned that the more you keep private things private the better you are. You never know where and how it will surface.

I have learned that good intentions dont often have good outcomes. People can talk even without meaning to, respond unawaringly to subconscious info, and drop clues here and there without realizing. The Torah exalts privacy, not oversharing or creeping into others private lives.

I have also learned that people often promote things without critical analysis or in-depth understanding - and that it often comes back to bite their very selves.

I have also learned that when you give a person/organization a finger, they demand a hand.

I have also learned that words necessarily don't match peoples action. And people that have access to private info can give in to their temptation to be nosy. (HIPAA became law for a reason.)

I have also learned that even the most disciplined person can fall prey to temptation. I believe our Torah says this as well.

I also have learned that nothing in our lives is guaranteed, but our inner tools is what help us navigate these challenges. Among those inner tools are self-respect, dignity and the view of how others treat you. What the schools are doing now are stripping the folks of these when they are already down.

I have also learned that when it comes to money, people are very creative with their rationalization to excuse inappropriate actions. That's what we have right now.

All the school's excuses are just rationalization for them to take the easier route rather than setting up an appropriate approach. If the Torah is our guide, why not use it instead if working around it? No matter how many people are gaming the system, it still isn't right.


Truth!!!
Wow I’m blown away by how true.

We had one instance a mental illness of a sibling was said to a person who helped us dealing with it she later on was peddling that info. it def humbling experience and ended up all marrying amazing kindhearted people but it was unfortunate that we even trusted that person originally. Private information is private well said!
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amother
Eggplant


 

Post Wed, May 15 2024, 9:26 am
amother Green wrote:
Dear, I am older. So here are some insights from a person who has extensive life experiences.

I have learned that the more you keep private things private the better you are. You never know where and how it will surface.

I have learned that good intentions dont often have good outcomes. People can talk even without meaning to, respond unawaringly to subconscious info, and drop clues here and there without realizing. The Torah exalts privacy, not oversharing or creeping into others private lives.

I have also learned that people often promote things without critical analysis or in-depth understanding - and that it often comes back to bite their very selves.

I have also learned that when you give a person/organization a finger, they often demand a hand.

I have also learned that words necessarily don't match peoples action. And people that have access to private info can give in to their temptation to be nosy. (HIPAA became law for a reason.)

I have also learned that even the most disciplined person can fall prey to temptation. I believe our Torah says this as well.

I also have learned that nothing in our lives is guaranteed, but our inner tools is what help us navigate these challenges. Among those inner tools are self-respect, dignity and the view of how others treat you. What the schools are doing now are stripping the folks of these when they are already down.

I have also learned that when it comes to money, people are very creative with their rationalization to excuse inappropriate actions. That's what we have right now.

All the school's excuses are just rationalization for them to take the easier route rather than setting up an appropriate approach. If the Torah is our guide, why not use it instead if working around it? No matter how many people are gaming the system, it still isn't right.



If I can touch on 2 of your points please.

We all agree that *it's better to keep things private*. The issue is that some (especially with larger families) might need access to $25,000 plus in tuition breaks. They don't really have a choice but to concede to the schools demands about the aid process because they just can't afford tuition otherwise.

Are you suggesting they take out massive loans so that they can keep things private? I don't agree.

Towards the end you wrote "the school is taking the easier route rather than setting up an appropriate approach".

Please share what that appropriate approach is where families won't take advantage and will also keep their dignity. Do you have an idea?
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, May 15 2024, 9:26 am
The problem is the attitude.
Schools approach parents asking for tuition breaks with a suspicion. They research stronger than the FBI. Financial history, records, audits
Their stated goal is to have fewer parents ASK.

I can't help but contrast to Tomchei Shabbos. They don't come across as suspicious. Their goal is fewer people NEEDING. They're not trying to scare people off who need from asking.

I know the schools have been burnt by parents who don't NEED the aid
But honestly. Schools are not that special. Tomchei Shabbos and other organizations have been burned also. That's life. There always are charlatans who try to take when they don't deserve. Chazal talk about them in the gemara (they provide a limud zchus when people just can't give).

As a parent who's trying so hard to make tuition a priority, it hurts me to be treated so poorly and so suspiciously. And that shouldn't be defended.
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amother
Melon


 

Post Wed, May 15 2024, 9:47 am
amother OP wrote:
The problem is the attitude.
Schools approach parents asking for tuition breaks with a suspicion. They research stronger than the FBI. Financial history, records, audits
Their stated goal is to have fewer parents ASK.

I can't help but contrast to Tomchei Shabbos. They don't come across as suspicious. Their goal is fewer people NEEDING. They're not trying to scare people off who need from asking.

I know the schools have been burnt by parents who don't NEED the aid
But honestly. Schools are not that special. Tomchei Shabbos and other organizations have been burned also. That's life. There always are charlatans who try to take when they don't deserve. Chazal talk about them in the gemara (they provide a limud zchus when people just can't give).

As a parent who's trying so hard to make tuition a priority, it hurts me to be treated so poorly and so suspiciously. And that shouldn't be defended.


Tomchei runs differently in each city. In mine (yes I applied and got) they DID ask for a lot of personal financial information. We had a sudden job loss.
The big difference was how easy it was to get an answer. And how nice they were about the whole process. The lady who has been my main contact was super helpful and kind. We also got an answer right away (within a week but that was with a tech issue on their part.).

The school? Been treated with suspicion and we are still waiting for an answer. Yes the secretary was nice when I asked to speak to a specific administrator and the finance department. But while the administrator and RAV who I spoke to telling him we need help NOW for this year because literally basic life expenses were more than income (not including clothes or anything possibly optional) was kind enough to push off our check for 2 weeks. Because somehow getting a job and 1st paycheck would happen by then. And then when it didn't we were told to ask family. No help from them really...
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amother
Eggplant


 

Post Wed, May 15 2024, 10:00 am
amother OP wrote:
The problem is the attitude.
Schools approach parents asking for tuition breaks with a suspicion. They research stronger than the FBI. Financial history, records, audits
Their stated goal is to have fewer parents ASK.

I can't help but contrast to Tomchei Shabbos. They don't come across as suspicious. Their goal is fewer people NEEDING. They're not trying to scare people off who need from asking.

I know the schools have been burnt by parents who don't NEED the aid
But honestly. Schools are not that special. Tomchei Shabbos and other organizations have been burned also. That's life. There always are charlatans who try to take when they don't deserve. Chazal talk about them in the gemara (they provide a limud zchus when people just can't give).

As a parent who's trying so hard to make tuition a priority, it hurts me to be treated so poorly and so suspiciously. And that shouldn't be defended.



Do you think it's justified that the schools have suspicion?

Tomchei is much different. I think the typical family would not be tempted to put their name on the tomchei list so that they can get $60 worth of free shabbos food. Families are tempted to apply for many thousands in aid that they might not really qualify for.
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amother
Chambray


 

Post Wed, May 15 2024, 10:00 am
With the people on the board I spoke with
The schools really need tuition and rely on donors to mitigate costs that being said it’s really dependent on the school and how many are full tuition families and their donor base.

Each administration can give breaks accordingly.

If need a tuition break so badly it’s better to send to a wealthier parent body school that majority do pay fully so they can give breaks. No school can afford giving that many breaks

That’s how my parents got breaks years ago and paid very little bc the most of the school paid full.
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amother
Acacia


 

Post Wed, May 15 2024, 10:02 am
amother Chambray wrote:
With the people on the board I spoke with
The schools really need tuition and rely on donors to mitigate costs that being said it’s really dependent on the school and how many are full tuition families and their donor base.

Each administration can give breaks accordingly.

If need a tuition break so badly it’s better to send to a wealthier parent body school that majority will help the students and can give breaks.

That’s how my parents got breaks years ago and paid very little bc the most of the school paid full.


Except your kids will be miserable being the only poor kid in a rich school and constantly beg for expensive things you can't afford...
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, May 15 2024, 10:14 am
amother Eggplant wrote:
Do you think it's justified that the schools have suspicion?

Tomchei is much different. I think the typical family would not be tempted to put their name on the tomchei list so that they can get $60 worth of free shabbos food. Families are tempted to apply for many thousands in aid that they might not really qualify for.


The answer is
1) not to put people who need financial aid through grueling humiliating audits, where they're yelled at to go door to door collecting for their tuition.
The answer is to actually act like a partnership. Open the books. Allow parents to make decisions. Should the playground be upgraded if it means tuition has to be raised. Do we really need that much color copies, high end projects, expensive equipment.
2) part of being honest means sharing true cost of educating. Having a clear scholarship fund, not at the administrators discretion. Make it clear that tuition help is available for everyone who needs it but if you don't need it and take it, Hashem will know and in shamayim it will hurt.

And they need to remember that shaming someone can make them lose their place in olam haha.
Is it worth it?
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amother
Burntblack


 

Post Wed, May 15 2024, 10:17 am
We bh are gebenched with a nice sized family. We pay bh tuition. Alot of tuition. But we still cant pay FULL tuition.

So the beginning of every year my husband goes down to the school office to negotiate. I am not exaggerating to say that a dejected, broken person comes out. Its not right. To be fair, our sons yeshivas are super awesome and treat us with great dignity. It can be done.

Another great issue for the Agudah to tackle is the fact that so many jewish families are limiting the number of children they are having just because of tuition.
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amother
Chambray


 

Post Wed, May 15 2024, 10:18 am
amother OP wrote:
The answer is
1) not to put people who need financial aid through grueling humiliating audits, where they're yelled at to go door to door collecting for their tuition.
The answer is to actually act like a partnership. Open the books. Allow parents to make decisions. Should the playground be upgraded if it means tuition has to be raised. Do we really need that much color copies, high end projects, expensive equipment.
2) part of being honest means sharing true cost of educating. Having a clear scholarship fund, not at the administrators discretion. Make it clear that tuition help is available for everyone who needs it but if you don't need it and take it, Hashem will know and in shamayim it will hurt.

And they need to remember that shaming someone can make them lose their place in olam haha.
Is it worth it?


Very true.

Now we have to start a grassroots movement seeing more transparency in schools.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Wed, May 15 2024, 10:26 am
I don’t think it’s fair to compare tuition breaks to tomchei. Yes I think the schools are out of line. But they still can’t be compared to what is effectively a food pantry which pays out way less per family and where they know exactly where the money is going.
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amother
Chambray


 

Post Wed, May 15 2024, 10:43 am
My pet peeve is outrageous spending in schools and then constantly collecting from parent for stuff but we do it and live frugally and pay full I don’t have that many kids in school yet so it’s manageable.
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B'Syata D'Shmya




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 15 2024, 11:16 pm
amother Green wrote:
Dear, I am older. So here are some insights from a person who has extensive life experiences.

I have learned that the more you keep private things private the better you are. You never know where and how it will surface.

I have learned that good intentions dont often have good outcomes. People can talk even without meaning to, respond unawaringly to subconscious info, and drop clues here and there without realizing. The Torah exalts privacy, not oversharing or creeping into others private lives.

I have also learned that people often promote things without critical analysis or in-depth understanding - and that it often comes back to bite their very selves.

I have also learned that when you give a person/organization a finger, they often demand a hand.

I have also learned that words necessarily don't match peoples action. And people that have access to private info can give in to their temptation to be nosy. (HIPAA became law for a reason.)

I have also learned that even the most disciplined person can fall prey to temptation. I believe our Torah says this as well.

I also have learned that nothing in our lives is guaranteed, but our inner tools is what help us navigate these challenges. Among those inner tools are self-respect, dignity and the view of how others treat you. What the schools are doing now are stripping the folks of these when they are already down.

I have also learned that when it comes to money, people are very creative with their rationalization to excuse inappropriate actions. That's what we have right now.

All the school's excuses are just rationalization for them to take the easier route rather than setting up an appropriate approach. If the Torah is our guide, why not use it instead if working around it? No matter how many people are gaming the system, it still isn't right.


Re the bolded: So what approach would you take? Whats the solution?

I can read from your post that life has really been hard on you. I am so sorry. I wish I could hug you.
I agree with most of what you wrote but see the other side of the coin as well.
I understand your wanting to keep things private.
If a family needs consideration with a childs expensive tuition and (due to others abusing this), are asked to volunteer cc statements, they can redact sensitive info. But dont need to think that others dont have the same expenses/situations as you do. Your secrets and mine are more similar than you think.
Difference is you have the luxury of keeping your secrets to yourself and dont need help with tuition. I dont.
Those of us asking for consideration are not asking for a finger but a hand too. I know and understand the burden. Asking others to forgo a luxury so my child can have a Jewish education is asking a lot. I know. They want to know I am not taking advantage of their generosity.
You think the schools have nefarious plans with your information (they already know your listed income) to the extent that it will hurt you. Perhaps. No different than doctors and lawyers, Siri, Waze, Google and the company selling you toothpaste.
Yes, money, greed, temptation etc corrupts. But it works two ways. If you have the right to ask for help, they have the right to know that they are giving it where it is needed. If we take everyone on their word, those who need it most, may not get it.
Yes people can be nosy and cruel, Im not sugar coating the world.
Remember, Hashem runs the world, if someone hurts you, He can help.
Good intentions often dont have good outcomes, but as Hashem runs the world, things will be the way they should be. Mench trucht and all.
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B'Syata D'Shmya




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 15 2024, 11:17 pm
amother Chambray wrote:
My pet peeve is outrageous spending in schools and then constantly collecting from parent for stuff but we do it and live frugally and pay full I don’t have that many kids in school yet so it’s manageable.


Ahhh, but the outrageous spending is what makes the school unique and sought after. Same with camps, seminaries, wedding venues etc.
We want the luxuries but dont want to pay for them.
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B'Syata D'Shmya




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 15 2024, 11:19 pm
amother OP wrote:
The answer is
1) not to put people who need financial aid through grueling humiliating audits, where they're yelled at to go door to door collecting for their tuition.
The answer is to actually act like a partnership. Open the books. Allow parents to make decisions. Should the playground be upgraded if it means tuition has to be raised. Do we really need that much color copies, high end projects, expensive equipment.
2) part of being honest means sharing true cost of educating. Having a clear scholarship fund, not at the administrators discretion. Make it clear that tuition help is available for everyone who needs it but if you don't need it and take it, Hashem will know and in shamayim it will hurt.

And they need to remember that shaming someone can make them lose their place in olam haha.
Is it worth it?


we dont need all the upgrade, but fact is, schools that do it remain popular and schools that dont, fail.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Wed, May 15 2024, 11:20 pm
B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:
Ahhh, but the outrageous spending is what makes the school unique and sought after. Same with camps, seminaries, wedding venues etc.
We want the luxuries but dont want to pay for them.
I don’t want any luxuries. I am not capable of homeschooling and I want my kids safe and cared for. That’s all.
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amother
Vermilion


 

Post Wed, May 15 2024, 11:21 pm
amother Chambray wrote:
They’re looking for frivolous spending money.
spending on clothing, shoes, expensive car payment, vacations, food restaurants,

Luxurious that don’t need! Without those you’ll be able to afford full tuition!!!!!!

Basically they’re finally realizing people take brakes but live luxuriously on the school’s expense. And they’re cutting down on that


Wait, if I don’t buy clothing and shoes I’d be able to pay full tuition?? Why did I not know this.

I’ll make sure we all walk around looking tattered, and not buy anything new until tuition is paid up
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B'Syata D'Shmya




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 15 2024, 11:46 pm
amother Plum wrote:
I don’t want any luxuries. I am not capable of homeschooling and I want my kids safe and cared for. That’s all.


I agree but the trend has been the opposite. Im just telling you as I see it. The seminaries and Yeshivas in Israel too. Those who dont provide the luxuries, fail. The kids feel the social pressure as well, provide the name brands or be cast the neb (social outcast). The principals have all gotten the memo. We as a society are imploding and the Rabbanim are doing nothing.
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