Asking the chachamim of your own time

gonewiththewind

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 2:56 pm

freidasima wrote:

You just don't like psychology or sociology. They don't necessarily contradict religion you know, they just give additional explanations other than the theological one.

As for what I write being "ignorant" or "offensive", as I wrote, I am so happy that you and some other posters live in a gan eden where everything is truly done only leshem mitzva and not even the smallest bit as competition, as a social statement, or as anything that isn't 100,000% lishem shomayim.

And that anyone who dares say that there are others, including some ultra orthodox Jews who don't exactly live that way is "ignorant" or "offensive". Sometimes the truth can be hurting and I know it's hard to cope with the fact that charedim are human beings with human failings just like the rest of us.

Please. You make wild accusation and write slurs on entire communities and accuse us of getting insulted if someone says we are not 1000% perfect.
It is not the truth hurts, but the lies. And lies, and more lies.
I am sorry but you have gone waay over the line of anything resembling normality and decency.

freidasima

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 3:58 pm

As for blatant generalizations, I think that most MO posters here were equally hurt by the blatant and across the board "smearing" of MO calling them the same as Reform Jews. Or saying that there is no kedusha in MO life, or saying that MOs are only interested in using their money for paying for mixed swimming, bigger TVS and going to the theatre.

If I may quote you: "it is not the truth hurts, but the lies. And lies and more lies".

I don't know what psychologists you know but those of us who are professional group speakers speak in a certain way usually and this is it.

Look - we come from two different places. I see the problems in charedi society, or at least in parts of it. You see only the good or are not willing to admit that these problems of competition which is NOT leshem shomayim exist. That's a circle that can never be squared I'm afraid. I admit that there are various issues and problems in MO society, but you present charedi society like a perfect Gan Eden in which these problems don't exist.

I will continue to state that you are not describing reality and that I am not smearing an entire community, I am however stating that this phenomenon exists and that there are certain charedi communities in which it is widespread.

And as for psychology, here too it's all interpretation. If someone says that something is a neurosis you see it as a value judgement (even though today freudianism is really old hat...) while a psychologist will see it as a phenomenalization. That's why charedim are close to fundamentalists, but we have had that argument before and it doesn't pay to rehash.

On the other thread one of the MO stated it well. One of the differences between MOs and charedi are that MO come from a place where things are supposed to be argued from a point of view of understanding the mechanism or and reasons or the development if you don't have the two previous things. Charedim state that they do it because their Rov says and that's enough. That's the difference between fundamentalism and non-fundamentalists among other things.

And now you are going to say that I am degrading charedim again. Maybe remember that I believe in live and let live and that calling someone fundamentalist doesn't mean calling them "ignorant" or "smearing them". If you think that, then YOU are the ones giving a value judgement. I am just trying to catalogue in order to make order for myself in viewing a phenomenon.

gonewiththewind

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 4:24 pm

freidasima wrote:

Look - we come from two different places. I see the problems in charedi society, or at least in parts of it. You see only the good or are not willing to admit that these problems of competition which is NOT leshem shomayim exist. That's a circle that can never be squared I'm afraid. I admit that there are various issues and problems in MO society, but you present charedi society like a perfect Gan Eden in which these problems don't exist.

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I don't see the point in continuing this if you keep writing things such as the above which exists only in your imagination, as I have written many, many times about the problems in chareidi society (even though I am yeshivish, not chareidi) and that we all need to improve. I just don't like your smears about large segments of the community. There are so many things that you have been corrected on many times and continue to repeat, so what is the point? I would never say MO is like reform or has no kedusha. I am sorry if you think it is a smear to say MO society lacks kedusha. But Kadosh means separate. It is not as separate. I love and respect my mo relatives, but there is not as much kedusha in their lives as I believe there should be. How can there be when they watch all kinds of stuff on Tv?

ANd just as Freud is now old hat, so too, in 50 years or so, will the current theories be.
anyhow, there is no point in discussing torah ideas with someone who believes Hashem gave us mitzvos to meet primitive needs.

gonewiththewind

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 4:44 pm

Marina, do you really believe I take you seriously anymore? Don't even you see how funny your sermonizing is?

I guess I am not entitled to an opinion. That is my opinion. that TV detracts from the kedusha in your life. It is not a sweeping generalization. and guess what? If you want to call me lots of names for thinking that, I couldn't give a hoot. It is no where near the same as saying an entire group of people is interested in bigger and more expensive and not in halacha. But I don't know why I am even answering you seriously.

and you don't think FS is arrogant and judgmental and makes sweeping generalizions. it's a joke.

Last edited by gonewiththewind on Mon, Jun 08 2009, 4:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

marina

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 4:50 pm

If that's not holier-than-thou, I don't know what is. You are literally saying that everyone with a television is less holy than you. The other areas in which they might be stronger than you make no difference, they have a TV and that's it- they are less holy, on a lower level than you.

Frankly, you are welcome to that opinion but it's pretty ironic to post that kind of stuff and then have a pity party that everyone is attacking your derech.

gonewiththewind

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 4:56 pm

marina wrote:

That is all your interpretation. All that stuff about less holy than me and ignoring their strengths is what you said, and how you twisted it. But I think most people are aware of how ridiculous you get and don't take you seriously.
the only pity party we should hold is for you. I actually do feel bad for you, and how krum your mind is.

Last edited by gonewiththewind on Mon, Jun 08 2009, 4:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

marina

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 5:19 pm

miriamf wrote:

marina wrote:

Yep, keep on insulting others and then cry about how chareidi people are bashed. It proves your point well.

Last edited by marina on Mon, Jun 08 2009, 5:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

marina

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 5:23 pm

shalhevet wrote:

So, marina, how do you feel TV adds to kedusha in the lives of those who watch it? Because miriamf didn't say anything about the people who have a television, only about the television's effects.

But I am probably mistaken. Because only FS gets her words twisted on this thread.

She was talking about all of MO. She used the example of her MO relatives to give us an example of how MO people don't have as much kedusha in their lives as she thinks they should have. What if I had written- I love my chareidi relatives, but they don't have as much intelligence as I think they should because they don't have secular books. Would that be a slur on the chareidi community or am I just casually chatting about my relatives here? Hey, I'm not talking about them, just the effects of not having secular reading material.

As an aside, please do not twist my words, I absolutely do not think my chareidi relatives are less intelligent than anyone else.

marina

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 5:30 pm

This is about my blog again? Huh?

So let me get this straight. I have a blog, a personal internet journal, and because I comment on articles and news items in ways with which you don't agree, now I can't comment on how your remarks about MO people can be seen as insulting? Did I get that right?

Well, according to that logic, all the people who said insulting things about anyone, political figures such as Barack Obama included, are now forbidden from being insulted about anything anyone says. Good, it will be quiet for a change around here.

gonewiththewind

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 5:52 pm

freidasima wrote:

On the other thread one of the MO stated it well. One of the differences between MOs and charedi are that MO come from a place where things are supposed to be argued from a point of view of understanding the mechanism or and reasons or the development if you don't have the two previous things. Charedim state that they do it because their Rov says and that's enough. That's the difference between fundamentalism and non-fundamentalists among other things.

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Before signing off, I just wanted to add this is TOTALLY, TOTALLY not true. That would mean that I and my family are completely not chareidi.

cassandra

Mon, Jun 08 2009, 5:58 pm

miriamf wrote:

freidasima wrote:

Before signing off, I just wanted to add this is TOTALLY, TOTALLY not true. That would mean that I and my family are completely not chareidi.

I'm the one who said it and I didn't mean it in terms of a general delineation, I meant it in terms of people who don't really know reasons for why they do what they do and then feel attacked when people ask them "why" and they don't have a good answer.