Support group for women who work in very full time jobs?

cassandra

Sun, Aug 09 2009, 9:57 am

Quote:

And if the OP is genuinely secure in her choices, she won't be bothered by such questions or by people who don't "get" her circumstances. She'll realize their advice is skewed by their lack of similar experience, take what she can from it, and move along.

This is what I keep coming back to in trying to understand this. Like I said in the other thread, I would never judge my doctor friend because she is open enough with me that I understand that she isn't completely secure in her choice, she isn't sure it's the best choice (as in, it's great for her to do and there are no consequences) just the better choice (as in, there are negative consequences but she still thinks it's the best thing for her for whatever reason.)

A closed forum, to me, is essentially saying "we are insecure with our choice but don't want anyone to know about it." But again, maybe if people saw that sometimes it is hard for you they'd be less likely to jump on you. And ignore what I call the stupid people-- the people who aren't very thoughtful and will just say whatever they think regardless of what sense it makes.

cassandra

Sun, Aug 09 2009, 12:16 pm

Only insecure in the fact that you need to hide your negative feelings, because that seems to be the only reason for the forum. It's been established that the idea of having a forum of everyone who is in the same boat as is a pipe dream as there are very few people who are going to be in the exact same boat as you. If you have your housekeeper cook shabbos for you and someone without a housekeeper who works the same hours as you is having trouble juggling shabbos cooking, what can your really say to her? And a mother with six kids under four and no babysitter is going to have a really hard time cooking for Shabbos too, so maybe she'd benefit from a discussion of cooking for Shabbos with zero time? On the flip side, I'm a sahm with a part time babysitter, and I've left sick kids with her so that I could attend another kid's siddur play, for example. And yes, I felt a little guilty about it. But how often does a kid get sick to warrant another forum? And the going into Shabbos in your weekday clothes? BTDT as a sahm too, unfortunately. At least your business clothes are more shabbosy than my denim skirt.

Again, we are a diverse group of women and no one person is going to completely relate to what another goes through. But I think that a lot of what working mothers go through is universal enough that others can benefit and add to the discussion, and it's also useful in the sense that if others can see what you go through they might be more willing to give you a break. Like Fox was saying, if you present yourself as "I'm this hotshot business owner who walks in five minutes before Shabbos and I looooove what I do" then mothers who sacrifice to be there for their kids no matter what are going to see you as callous and uncaring. OTOH, if you are more open about your struggles, about how it's hard to just walk out on a sick child, then maybe people would start to thinking to themselves "wow, even though this is so hard for her she does it anyway, this must be something that she really needs." Hide from everyone and you are furthering the divide. Be open and there is a much greater chance that ultimately others will come to understand you as best they can.

Fox

Sun, Aug 09 2009, 12:54 pm

cassandra wrote:

A closed forum, to me, is essentially saying "we are insecure with our choice but don't want anyone to know about it." But again, maybe if people saw that sometimes it is hard for you they'd be less likely to jump on you. And ignore what I call the stupid people-- the people who aren't very thoughtful and will just say whatever they think regardless of what sense it makes.

Exactly!

Frankly, if you never feel insecure or ambivalent about your choices . . . well, you're not paying attention!

I'm aware that Golda Meir is not someone we frequently quote on this forum, but how many of us can't relate to her remark: "At work, you think of the children you've left at home. At home, you think of the work you've left unfinished. Such a struggle is unleashed within yourself, your heart is rent."

Now, I don't think too many of us can claim to have careers or professions more demanding than Mrs. Meir's. Nor do I think that too many of us can claim to be more secure about our choices than Mrs. Meir was. So if an individual with a purposely, decidedly secular outlook such as Golda Meir can openly acknowledge the inherent, heartbreaking struggle between a fulfilling career and fulfilling work as a mother . . . how can any frum woman claim that she is never ambivalent about her choices?! We should be ambivalent about our choices!

Writer Dave Barry (boy, I'm really pulling quotes from a diverse group this morning!) wrote that "people who feel the need to tell you that they have a great sense of humor are really telling you that they don't have a sense of humor." The same is true for the choices women have to make in balancing various roles. But the argument for a closed forum because of bashing is basically, "I'm completely secure and happy with my choices, but it makes me feel bad if anyone criticizes me."

The mommy wars rage in both secular and religious venues precisely because we refuse to acknowledge our ambivalence -- as if admitting to any difficulties, however minor, or ever having any second thoughts would constitute aid and comfort to the enemy. And then, like monkeys engaged in over-aggressive grooming, we pick at these emotional scabs on each other. This is a fight we should walk away from!

If someone doesn't understand your circumstances, explain. Giving an extra sentence or two of detail is hardly onerous if you're genuinely seeking advice or even just venting. If someone becomes snippy, just reiterate that your work/home balance is not the topic at hand. If she persists, report her to the moderators and/or let her peers tell her that she's out of line. And, as Harry S. Truman always said, "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen."

creativemommyto3

Mon, Aug 10 2009, 2:23 pm

flowerpot wrote:

I still don't see why having a closed forum means I'm insecure. many times when a working mom asks for advice or shares her hardships she gets bashed. so I don't even bother asking. I'm not interested in getting everyones looks. A working mom can not always understand a SAHM and so too a SAHM cannot understand a working mom.

Yeah but a SAHM doesn't have a closed forum and neither does a WAHM.. honestly there is bashing all over the place on this site and it's getting a bit ridiculous to have all these closed forums.

Different views are not necessarily bashing if said respectfully.. b/c there are soo many nuances that it could make person nuts. I know a frum woman doctor who loves her job but would never recommend it for her own daughter because the schedule is a hard one . Does that mean she doesn't belong in the forum?

Working is working .. granted there are differences but we can all commiserate with each other..

newToNeighborhood

Mon, Aug 10 2009, 2:50 pm

I think women working full-time out of the home should have their own forum. I work as an analyst for a large investment firm and would like to hear from people with similar working situations. What is everyone’s night like? Do you spend any time vegging out? Who does the laundry and dishes? Do you have company on Shabbos or are you just too tired (like I often am)? How/when do you cook for Shabbos? One reason I would really love to work from home is because I hate not having fresh food Friday nights in the winter! I get home so close to Shabbos, that there's no time to start cooking fresh... If I worked at home at least I’d be able to put the pan in the oven!

I also think a forum would be a great place to network. When it comes time to look for a new job, I'd love to be able to pass on my resume to someone frum. I’d also like to be able to find out about different opportunities within my field. Networking is how I got into this field to begin with!

One more though- I work in Jersey City and have yet to see another frum woman... it would be nice to have a friend to meet with for lunch!

creativemommyto3

Mon, Aug 10 2009, 2:59 pm

newToNeighborhood wrote:

Some of us WAHM work up til a few minutes before licht bentchen on some Erev shabbosos and Erev yom tov.. plus we are already collapsing from working til 1 or 2am..

creativemommyto3

Mon, Aug 10 2009, 3:34 pm

newToNeighborhood wrote:

I understand what you're saying- we can all commiserate with eachother, but I guess I feel that someone who worked outside of the home would understand that even if I prepared my chicken the night before, it won't have enough time to cook on Friday afternoon, since I get home so close to Shabbos. Well, enought about chicken- the real point of my post was to say that I support a forum (open or closed) for full-time working out of the home moms. There's a forum for WAHM, so why not one for us?

Not saying not.. but why closed?? I also used to work outside the home and hope to do it again some day.. I used to be the bus matron for a preschool and had to be on the bus at 7:15. and wouldn't come home til around 5.. then I had to make supper and run out to college..
I am sure you can tell us WAHMs a thing or two also..

but are you going to divide it by age? number of kids? age you got married? etc etc

Fox

Mon, Aug 10 2009, 4:01 pm

newToNeighborhood wrote:

I understand that when you work from home you have very long hours, but you can put a pan of already prepared chicken in the oven a few hours before Shabbos begins... I guess this is one of the reasons I'd like a forum- I wasn't attacking WAHM, just noting one of the many differences...

Okay . . . this is the kind of thing that makes me want to borrow Cassandra's boxing gloves and go at it! However, I'm going to try to stay in "educative" mode rather than "slamdown" mode.

Let's establish something:

Working from an office in one's home does not mean that one can necessarily "put a pan of already prepared chicken in the oven". No; no; no! There may be some people whose home-based work does allow them to do so. There are probably many more, including myself, whose job might allow her to do it sometimes. But this notion that WAHM can somehow multi-task professional and home-related tasks is not only inaccurate for most of us, it is deeply, deeply offensive.

When I am working with a client, that client is paying my to give his/her organization my full attention, not think about whether I need to put something in the oven or take it out. I do not attempt to cook or do other household tasks while I am at work. When my children were young, I had a babysitter for them -- I needed to be at work, even if my desk happened to be down the staircase. And when the babysitter didn't show up, it was just as much of a disaster as if I'd been in an office elsewhere. Meetings had to be rescheduled; conference calls had to be juggled . . .

And when one of my clients has a Friday-afternoon emergency? Guess who is in the office taking care of it?! Most of them don't know that I work from a home office, and none of them care. They want the services they've paid for; they are not interested in being placed on hold while I season the soup, etc. I have never relied on being able to cook on Friday -- we'd be eating peanut butter sandwiches for Shabbos if I did!

Most of us who work at home employ technology that makes our whereabouts completely unknown and our interaction with customers and clients seamless. By simply plugging my phone device into any computer with high speed Internet, my caller ID will register as a Manhattan number. While I'm generally sitting in Chicago, I could just as easily be sitting in Israel . . . or on the beach in Jamaica. Likewise, I can connect into my company's network from anywhere.

While this technology makes it possible for me to work from a home office or from the beach, it doesn't change the nature or demands of my job by one iota. Yes, there are periods when I'm not as busy, but there are far more days when I barely have time to go to the bathroom. Now that my kids are older, working from home does give me greater flexibility -- sometimes. But there have been plenty of times when I had to say, "No, Shaina Maydel, I'm afraid I can't bring you the homework you left on the table. I have to work."

So while I realize that no offense was intended, claiming that WAHM can cook while they're working reflects a significant misunderstanding not only of the types of jobs that are now performed from home, but also of the demands of that work.

ss321

Mon, Aug 10 2009, 4:22 pm

creativemommyto3 wrote:

newToNeighborhood wrote:

Who says attacking? I am just bringing a point that we can all commiserate w/ each other and actually help each other..
like.. maybe buying the chicken all separated for the month and putting it in pans and spicing the chicken.. Then put it in the oven.. voila.. you have chicken for shabbos for the month.. all you need to do is put it on the plata!

right- and for that, we still have the "working moms" forum.

but I like many other posters (apparently 80 percent of those surveyed) feel attacked at times when posting questions relating to their being out of the home full time. I want to be able to post a question about my housekeeper or about what you do when you miss bedtime without being asked why or being given (good advice for someone else albeit not for me) ideas about how to "solve" the problem (ie be home).
Its not an insecurity thing, if it were, I would never post what I do on here, because I would be scared of being attacked or bashed. I am ready to put on my boxing gloves when I want to defend myself. but when I want simple advice or I just want to discuss something that the other 40 or so (based on who answered the poll so far) women on here in similar shoes can really understand because they have BTDT, I want to be able to do that without the conversation being veered off course or being held "accountable" for what I said in another thread.

I have to say though as usual, fox makes some pretty amazing points. your quote from golda meir says it all. and zionist or not, religious or not, you gotta admire that woman and what she accomplished in her lifetime.

creativemommyto3, I dont understand why you are so particularly opposed to this (ie-fox has articulated her viewpoint, I still fail to understand yours other htan it being "please dont bash WAHMs" which no one is doing). I dont think I would have a problem if the WAHM forum was "closed." I think if I or any other working mom or 100% SAHM was thinking about working at home, opening a home business, working part time from home, etc, whatever the case might be, they could easily PM the mod of such a hypothetical closed forum, explain teh situation, and be invited to post and ask questions.

ss321

Mon, Aug 10 2009, 4:32 pm

creativemommyto3 wrote:

newToNeighborhood wrote:

and for all the things that can go in to either category, there will still be the "working women" sub-forum. no one (as of yet) is advocating changing that. unless I missed something, I have not read every single post in here, sorry.
I can think of a million issues (and I am not a WAHM) that are totally irrelivant to those of us who work full time outside the home.
and I can likewise think of a million issues that are totally irrelivant to those of you who work at home. I know for myself that I am frustrated with the fact that often times when someone (myself included) posts something, it turns into a debate and bashfest. I am also frustrated with the fact that often times (myself included) women on here feel the need to post as amothers because there is so much bashing. think about the thread that londoner started (that started this entire debate to begin with). cant you see, based on her post as "amother' and all the ensuing "amother" posts, that there is a good number of women who are sick of being bashed, and all wanted a place to discuss their issues without being bashed?

creativemommyto3 wrote:

but are you going to divide it by age? number of kids? age you got married? etc etc

huh?
what on earth do any of these things have to do with working outside the home full time?
I think all of us who want this forum, have pretty much established, that the correlation factor between the items you mentioned, and us working outside the home, is pretty much close to or about zero.
in other words- whether or not I am 20 or 50
whether I have 1 kid or 6
whether or not I got married at 18 or 28
I work outside the home, and I want somwhere where I can discuss some of those issues without being bashed.
what does that have to do with any of the three things you mentioned?
I think the division is simple:
Workingwomen forum, for all women who work. that can mean tutoring 2 hrs/wk, or it can mean working in a law firm 80 hrs/wk. It can mean a florist, a soldier, a sailor, milkman, you get the picture. just about anyone who does anything to earn money, or is in school learning how to do something to earn money (in other words, "work.")
then there is a teachers subforum, for teachers. that can mean a full time teacher. a playgroup morah, a math professor, a chumash teacher, a tutor, whoever.
then there is a WAHM subforum, for women who work at home
and then there is the forum I proposed.
what is complicated.

creativemommyto3

Mon, Aug 10 2009, 4:37 pm

ss321 wrote:

creativemommyto3 wrote:

newToNeighborhood wrote:

Could it be that you are assuming too much? after all you assumed that I was a SAHM in the feminist thread?
I am not bashing.. I just don't see a reason for a closed forum..
Hey, you don't think that I get sick and tired of ppl saying that I must be partying b/c of WAHM..
stop looking at different point of views as attacks..

creativemommyto3

Mon, Aug 10 2009, 4:41 pm

ss321 wrote:

creativemommyto3 wrote:

newToNeighborhood wrote:

creativemommyto3 wrote:

but are you going to divide it by age? number of kids? age you got married? etc etc

The complication is the fact that you feel the need for it to be CLOSED. That is it.. If the WAHM forum isn't private.. then you don't need it either.. and we get bashed plenty.. as do the SAHMs who happen to have cleaning ladies.. etc etc. etc.