EASY baby- baby whisperer-routine at night

cubbie

Sat, Jan 16 2010, 1:33 pm

sunny90 wrote:

Okay more questions:

1. What do you do on Shabbos when people/meals get in the way of their usual schedule?
2. Do they need to have an actual time schedule? Like, does it matter if he had a nap for about an hour, woke up because he was hungry and was so tired that he went back to sleep afterwards, as long as he was changed so therefore awake for about 10 min?

And also my original questions:

Quote:

2. How long should the naps be? When should the last nap be before bedtime?
3. Would he sleep less at night because I put him to bed earlier?

Thanks!

Shabbos is a hard one, like today we were out for lunch we were invited for 12 so I needed to put her in the stroller at 11.45, but she was fast asleep so she wasn't happy, but at least she'd slept for a long while before since 10.30 ish (I usually consider 1 1/2 - 2 hours a proper length nap), ok she was fine once we were walking and then I fed her at 12.30, but after she's used to activity time and then being put to bed wrapped up, in her crib in a dark room. so instead she played in the stroller and dozed a little, we held her a bit, but she slept at most 45 mins, so after I fed her at 3.30 she was exhausted and slept from the 4.15 when I put her to bed until 6pm when I woke her, she wasn't ready to be woken, and was really yawning and crying, so I fed her and put her straight back to bed.
Sometimes shabbos is hard, the day when you want your baby the calmest is the day it's just not, but I keep reminding myself that tomorrow is another day when everything goes back to normal.

At 5 weeks it's normal to only be awake for 10 minutes after eating, because he's not really awake for 10 minutes he's also awake the time your feeding - the important thing is that he's not leaning to fall asleep eating, so you're sticking with the routing of Eat, Activity, Sleep. Whilst it's good to have set approximate times, they're not set in stone, if your baby eats at say 1pm and you want to put him to bed at 2pm, there are going to be days that he might be hungry at 12.50 and not tired until 2.10 or hungry at 1.10 and tired at 1.50. You might one time need to wake him up for a feed and another time he might be awake 30 mins before eating. The point is that he's learning sensible eating and sensible sleeping and it's tailored to meet your babies needs which are always changing.

Naps should be while he's on a 3 hour schedule 3 naps of about 1 1/2 hours and a catnap about 45 mins.

My dd's schedule is something like this

6.30am Eat (followed by activity and then 1 1/2 hours sleep)
9.30am Eat " " " "
12.30pm Eat " " " "
3.30 pm Eat (followed by activity and then 45min - 1hour cat nap, waking up at 6pm)
6.30pm Eat (followed by sleep for the night)

How long he sleeps doesn't depend on when he goes to bed he should sleep 12 hours at night, if taught to (including feeding initially obviously) but when they get older later bedtimes generally result in less sleep, as over tired babies sleep less well.

shabri

Sat, Jan 16 2010, 1:37 pm

1. So it deps how much you want to stick to the routine and how committed you are to it. I was/am very committed since I see such a clear relationship between my kids sleeping and their schedule. It gets difficult when you have more than 1 and you can't be stuck to the clock. Like if I have to pick up my older one, my younger one has to come with me. But until you get the routine established, I would try to stick to it as much as possible. There really isn't too much of a reason that shabbos should disrupt.

2. Not sure why he was so tired right away. No you don't need to stick to the times exactly, these are babies you are talking abt, not robots. But if you are following it, within a few days/week you will be able to notice pretty set patterns. I used to say I could set a clock to my older ones wake ups/get tired. So maybe he wasn't really hungry after an hr and could have gone back to sleep for another 1/2 hr. Maybe he wasn't really tired after 10 minutes, but just needed something else. Maybe he was and just needed more sleep today. It does take some time to know your kid and get the best that works for him

3. So when my kids were abt 6-8 weeks this is what we did
8am wake up/nurse
8:45 activity--change/play etc
9:30 nap
11:00 Wake up (I would wake them even if they were not up) nurse
11:45 activity
12;30 nao
2:00 wake up/nurse
2:45 activity
3:30 nap
5:00 wake up/nurse
5:45 activity
6:15 ish catnap for 1/2 hr or so
7:00 play/bath
7:45ish nurse
8:15 go to bed
between 11 & 12 dreamfeed

I really recommended the big book (baby whisperer answer all of your questions) she has timings and techniques to establish the routine. It is hard to really get on it before 6 weeks, but I try to implement it from day 1.

4. not at all. Sleep begets sleep. If you kids take good naps and go to sleep before they are overtired they will sleep MUCH better and MUCH sounder. He might wake up earlier if you are putting him to sleep at 7pm instead of 10pm but it will be a better sleep and his daytime routine including naps will be much better

pinkbubbles

Sat, Jan 16 2010, 2:18 pm

sunny90 you are doing great btw Smile

When I trained DS I would be so stressed about Shabbat and everything getting messed up. For the most part we stayed in the house for a month until a routine was in place, then if we went out I would give him a late nap so he could last longer. Then we'd leave early or when he was still small he slept in his stroller.

The truth is routines never really fall into place until you've been doing them for a few weeks - but babies don't really start 'waking up' for longer stretches until they are 2/3 months old (in general) which is when routines are really useful, because they will last a certain amount of time before needing a nap. So if you make sure the baby is awake by a certain time and is fed soon after, the rest of the day should be pretty predictable schedule wise (and so his behavior). Growth spurts affect the first few months the most I think, thats when they want to eat/sleep more so it can throw things off a little.
I think a big part of him learning the difference between day and night is having activity and light compared to calm (unless he sleeps better with white noise) and dark. That helps with routine.

This might help you, I found it online. Sleep needs:

* 1 month: 8 1/2 hours of sleep at night, 3 naps totalling 7 hours, 15 1/2 hours sleep total
* 3 months: 10 hours of sleep at night, 3 naps totalling 5 hours, 15 hours sleep total
* 6 months: 11 hours of sleep at night, 2 naps totalling 3 1/4 hours, 14 1/4 hours sleep total
* 9 months: 11 hours of sleep at night, 2 naps totalling 3 hours, 14 hours sleep total
* 12 months: 11 1/4 hours of sleep at night, 2 naps totalling 2 1/2 hours, 13 3/4 hours sleep total

I used to keep a notebook in which I wrote DS's basic eating and sleeping schedule since I couldn't remember anything! mommy brain alert haha
but that helped me see what was going on, how many times he woke at night and why, and it showed improvement as we went along. I look at it now and can't imagine how I survived him waking up every 20 minutes some nights!! if only I knew then what I know now..

good luck Smile

sunny90

Sat, Jan 16 2010, 6:17 pm

Okay sorry just a question or two about dreamfeeding:

1. Do you put the paci back in after the dreamfeed?
2. Will he not wake up when I'm taking him out, putting him back in, etc.?
3. Do you burp them after night feedings as well? Til now I've put him to sleep in his crib but once he wakes up the first time at night, I just take him into bed with me, stick him on lying down, and go back to sleep. I'm just worried that I'd have to go through the whole patting/putting to sleep thing a few times a night--would I or would I just put him straight back in after feeding while he's sleeping? Basically what I'm asking is, do I let him fall asleep during his feed (at the end obviously) and just put him sleeping back into his crib or does he have to be somewhat awake when I put him back and I have to do the whole patting thing?

Thanks!

shabri

Sun, Jan 17 2010, 2:34 am

sunny90 wrote:

So dreamfeeding is not the same as night feeding. Dreamfeeding is before you go to bed (usually 2-3 hours after baby does) pick the baby up and feed him in his sleep. I was never able to nurse like this, although I have a friend that does. So it works out better for me since DH gives a bottle then. I think it would dep on the kid if I would burp. Tracy Hogg says the baby is so relaxed that there is no need. But if your baby takes in a lot of air, then I prob would. You don't want them waking up 10 minutes later b/c they have a burp. I have found that sometimes they way up and sometimes they sleep through the dream feed but either way, they go right back to sleep after. Make sure you are doing it in a dark room so they know its still night if they wake up. If he likes the paci, by all means put it back in. My kids are paci takers (1 thing I am not a BW) abt so yes we put the paci in after

If your baby is still getting up at night, totally normal at 5 weeks. Then just pick him up, feed him--burp him if necessary and put him right back in. Again make sure its all in a dark room. The point is that he should start to get the difference between day and night. Day=activity after eat night=sleep

shabri

Sun, Jan 17 2010, 7:07 am

sunny90 wrote:

But do you find that you have to pat them back to sleep in the middle of the night?
I tried, when I fed him at 5:20 this morning, to put him back in his crib, but he was restless and wouldn't fall back asleep so I just had to take him back into bed with me so that he'd sleep again! Is it like that every time they wake up in the night or is it just because it was close to morning?

I don't remember exactly, but could be I did and if I had to, I def would. The thing I wouldn't do was take him into bed with me (unless I was co-sleeping to begin with which I don't) Thats sending mixed messages and not fair to the baby.

Have you read the book?

Seraph

Sun, Jan 17 2010, 7:16 am

Ok, so maybe you can help me out here. I have my baby on an EASY routine, but I don't think his naps are long enough.
He's 4 months old now. He wakes up for the day at 7:00-7:30 or so, nurses, then goes back to sleep around 8:00-8:30, for like 45 minutes. Then he eats, is up for about 45 minutes, then goes back to sleep about 9:30. He wants to wake up 10:15, but I try rocking him back to sleep and he sleeps till 11. Then another nap at 1 pm, for 45-90 minutes, depending. And then again at 4:00, and then at 7:00. But at 7:45 he wakes up and wants to be up for a while. Yesterday I walked around and rocked him and did a whole bed time routine with him at 7 pm... but 45 minutes later he was up and ready to party. He only went to sleep for the night at 9 or so. I ended up taking him out of the room, into the living room that was darkened, and used the computer because was I really supposed to stay in the bedroom, not nursing, with the lights out (because when the night light was on, he was staring at it and so wide awake) for more than an hour after he finishes nursing, because it was after 7 pm?

shabri

Sun, Jan 17 2010, 7:30 am

Seraph wrote:

So at 4 mos you should try to move him towards a 4 hr schedule. Meaning up for 2 hours nap for 2 hours. Without knowing more I would say, When he wakes up at 7 or 7:30 try to keep him up for closer to 2 hrs--9 or 9:30. At the beginning try extending by 15 minutes. When you get him to go down at 9 for example try to get him to sleep for 1.5 or 2 hrs. Meaning if he wakes up after 45 min either shush pat or pick up/put down to get him back to sleep.

Then say he sleeps 2 hrs--thats till 11 then up, nurse, play until 1 and then down again until 3. I think your problem is the 4:00 nap. Really you should try to cut that out (which should be easier if you have him sleeping the other 2 naps for 2 hours. ) He prob got up again at 7:45 b/c he took a 3rd nap at 4. He wasn't tired yet. It might take a week or 2 to get him on that schedule but I think it might work

Hope it helps

Marion

Sun, Jan 17 2010, 7:34 am

Yes, he's definitely awake for much too short a time first thing in the morning. I don't know if I would call it a four hour schedule, but he should be able to go for 1.5-2 hours after that first nurse before he needs to be put down again.

(And I'll be a little critical here too...if he needs that much attention in the first 3 hours of his day, how are you running a daycare at the same time????)

As for EASY, the dreamfeed didn't work for us, for either child (they couldn't manage to latch in their sleep), but we maintained the same idea. I did NOT change diapers after the middle-of-the-night feedings, and they just went back to sleep.

Seraph

Sun, Jan 17 2010, 7:44 am

Marion wrote:

I try keeping him up longer but then he gets soooo overtired that I can't put him to sleep.

Quote:

(And I'll be a little critical here too...if he needs that much attention in the first 3 hours of his day, how are you running a daycare at the same time????)

Thats probably what I'm doing wrong. He's sleeping in his car seat in the room with me. And he nurses for 5 minutes. I do davening with the kids while nursing. I'm not exactly neglecting the kids. When he is in his bassinet, he doesnt sleep for longer than 45 minutes. When he's swaddled in his car seat, I'm able to extend his nap. So I do that in the room with the other kids. They're quiet enough while he's sleeping. I only have 2 other kids aside for my own and they're very chilled kids.[/quote]

Marion

Sun, Jan 17 2010, 8:49 am

Our parenting styles are generally quite different, so you can take or leave what I'm going to say.

1. You're shortchanging both Shmaya & the daycare kids. He's not sleeping for more than 45 minutes because he hasn't eaten enough. My kids were GREAT nursers, but they were never "done" in only 5 minutes. (10 yes, 5 no)

2. It's not fair to the daycare to insist that the kids are quiet so he can sleep, and it's not fair to him to try to force him to sleep in the middle of the daycare hubbub. I know you have space limitations, but if you generally co-sleep why can't he sleep in your room when the daycare is in the other room?

3. If the daycare is not being run "EASY", then you need to get the daycare and Shmaya in sync. Snack at daycare is when Shmaya is nursing. Then everyone has an activity...Shmaya has tummy time and the kids have something more age appropriate. When Shmaya has his nap, the kids have active time. If that means serving 2 snacks at the daycare (8:30 & 11:30) instead of aruchat eser, that might be what it means.

shabri

Sun, Jan 17 2010, 12:06 pm

Marion, she calls it a 4 hour schedule since they are up for 2 hours and napping for 2 hours--hence eating abt every 4 hours.

Seraph, could be he is so tired since he keeps waking up at 7:45pm (b/c he is taking that 3rd nap) and hanging out with you for an hr so he isn't really going to bed until 9ish. Hopefully once that all settles down, he will get a better sleep at night and then be able to stay awake in the am.

I found baby whispering much much harder once I had 2 (what will happen when I have 3 iy"h?) You do the best you can and try your hardest to be creative to give both kids (plus your work) what they need

cubbie

Sun, Jan 17 2010, 1:50 pm

Wow, I've been away from the computer for 24 hrs and so many posts here.

I'll start with Shabri - don't worry #3 is easier than #2 as 1&2 play with each other while you're working with 3 - I started with Shirel the day after I got home from the hospital (4 days), by a week old she was on a great routine already - the only downside is that I have to start the day at 6.30am - far too early!!! - as we need to be out the house by 8am latest and so I like to be finished feeding her by the time the older 2 get up at 7 so I can give them my full attention (they're 3 & 5).

Marion - it takes a while for many babies to learn how to dreamfeed (even with a bottle), usually a week, but it can take as much as 2 weeks.

Seraph - You really need to get him on easy and spend some time focusing on just him, bring in a temp for a couple of days to run the daycare and get him on track if you want him to have sensible sleeping habits. This may sound harsh, but it is both disrespectful to Shmaya and the other kids to juggle them both like this. When he is feeding he needs to be the focus of your attention, when he is sleeping, he needs to be in a crib in a dark room not in the middle of a playgroup. If he's starting at 7am his schedule should be roughly...
7am Eat
730am Activity
9am Sleep
11am Wake up & Eat
11.30am Activity
1pm Sleep
3pm Wake up & Eat
5pm Catnap
6pm Wake up, bath pj's
7pm Eat followed by bed for the night

(10-11pm dream feed if he still needs it to make it through the night)

Another thing to bare in mind is that there is nothing wrong with a baby lying in the bed "staring at the light" or even squirming and not sleeping, if your baby is not crying, you should just leave him and let him do his own thing - I am amazed at the number of parents I know who actually stop their babies from sleeping by trying to help. Unless your baby is crying he there is no need to intervene.