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Forum
-> Parenting our children
-> Infants
questioner
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 Mon, Jul 14 2014, 4:48 pm
| amother wrote: | | Yes it is the same amother. Din vecheshbon means for every cry and cry. For every second. That is what Chazal said. |
Where?
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amother
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Mon, Jul 14 2014, 4:56 pm
I can't tell you but I heard it from several reliable sources.
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questioner
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Mon, Jul 14 2014, 5:03 pm
| amother wrote: | | I can't tell you but I heard it from several reliable sources. |
Who?
It seems to be taking a leap to be so midayek in a lashon chazal without knowing that it actually is the lashon chazal
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Ruchel
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Mon, Jul 14 2014, 5:05 pm
| amother wrote: | | Not every rav is a real rav. |
You must be in obvious pain, amother. I'm not reporting you because I am, contrary to you, working on achdus on these hard days.
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amother
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Mon, Jul 14 2014, 5:31 pm
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I am sorry if you feel like I am attacking anybody. I really didn't mean to. The most important party here is the baby and I am trying to speak for him. Btw we all know that nowadays not everybody that is called a Rabbi is really Rabbi. Also the Rabbi in this generation is not as knowledgeable as it used to be. yeridas hadoros. I also let my first one cry for a month because I was convinced by my pediatrician. Later on I realized that it was a mistake.
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amother
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Mon, Jul 14 2014, 5:33 pm
| questioner wrote: | Who?
It seems to be taking a leap to be so midayek in a lashon chazal without knowing that it actually is the lashon chazal |
I saw it in chazal. Ask a talmid chachom to search it.
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MaBelleVie
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Mon, Jul 14 2014, 5:46 pm
| amother wrote: | | I saw it in chazal. Ask a talmid chachom to search it. |
What does "in chazal" mean...?
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chatouli
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Mon, Jul 14 2014, 6:12 pm
I can't believe even responding to this amother who won't bring a source. But here goes anyway.
My second baby woke up every hour and a half or two hours at night until he was eight months old. He wanted to nurse. Nothing else put him back to sleep. I could rock him, sing, replace his paci, my DH could try, nothing. Nothing else worked. He did not need the calories. He didn't even fall asleep nursing - he just wanted to nurse and then go back to bed. If he coslept, he woke up MORE often. He was exhausted and cranky during the day.
I was so tired. I had no patience for anyone. I dropped him once out of exhaustion (bh he was ok). I cried all the time. I was afraid to drive. My DH moved in with my toddler.
So I sleep trained him when he was 8 months old. It took about ten minutes of crying total. Our whole family life changed completely. He was a happier baby and we were a happy functional family again.
Want to explain this whole din v'cheshbon thing to me again? I know I did the right thing for all of us and I'm only sorry it took me as long as it did.
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The Happy Wife
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Mon, Jul 14 2014, 6:13 pm
| amother wrote: | | That is why I wrote that we need to prioritize. Woman go to events shiurim simchas and everything is demanding. The problem is that the baby is most needy and he doesn't know how to speak and demand. The first year of life is the most important in shaping the personality according to all psychologist. How do we know we are not contributing to add ADHD autism etc. this is very stressful for a little person to scream in the dark for hours. |
No one so far has mentioned or advocated letting a baby cry four hours. Only a few minutes at a time.
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The Happy Wife
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Mon, Jul 14 2014, 6:16 pm
| amother wrote: | | I didn't read the whole thread but I think letting a baby CIO is wrong and has long term damage. I also don't think it's allowed according to Halacha. Chazal said that a mother is obligated to answer her baby cry. Anon because I don't want to be attacked. |
I'm sorry you don't want to be attacked, but as you can see there are other posters here who have spoken against CIO and they were not attacked.
If you want to criticize other mothers, and their Rebbeim, you should really do it under your own screen name.
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The Happy Wife
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Mon, Jul 14 2014, 6:20 pm
| amother wrote: | Didnt read all replies
Just want to say that you are fighting his nature, there are other valid ways for baby to go to sleep eg. Nursing on your bed and he sleeps in your bed (in a safe way- away from you and pillows and blankets, near wall)
At some older age he will go to his own bed. He will not need comforting till he is 18yrs.
Why dont people just go with the flow? Comfort the baby to sleep, where does it say in the Torah that a baby must fall asleep on their own?
Once my friend told me she did cio andher kid is totally fine. Ha! The kid had BIG emotional/behavioural issues starting in the preschool years. I cant say its connected to cio but she cant tell me her kid is just fine.
Sorry im just writing in general to everyone |
Ok, well personally know several people whose mother let them cry it out and they DID turn out perfectly fine. One anecdotal incident does not mean anything.
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The Happy Wife
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Mon, Jul 14 2014, 6:32 pm
| amother wrote: | | It makes sense. I heard that rabbi kelerman and/orrlowitz say the same. You have to give din vecheshbon why you let baby cry. What would you say. I don't know why he cries but he is not hungry sick or wet? This os not a valid reason. The baby cries and he wants you. You can say that you are too tired but I'm not sure it's a good reason. You have to priorities your life. CIO is a new thing it was never done in the past decades. |
Wow, I guess my Mom was a real maverick when she let her kids cry it out 30+ years ago.
It may not have been known as the cry it out method, but believe me, mothers have been doing it before now.
AND, for the record, my Rabbi and Rebbetzin also would let their babies cry a little as they learned to fall asleep on their own. So I guess I don't need to ask a shaila about it.
And what sort of justification would these mothers who let their children CIO give? That they are lazy? Mean? Heartless? No, chas v'shalom. I would say most are trying to do what is best for their children, by teaching them sleeping habits that are healthy for mommy and baby. Just like if my child cries if he has to get a shot or medicine, or if we have to say no to something that our child wants and they cry.
I'm not saying this is the best or only method, but if this is what a mother chooses to do, it is not for other mothers to judge.
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goodmorning
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Mon, Jul 14 2014, 9:17 pm
| amother wrote: | | Yes it is the same amother. Din vecheshbon means for every cry and cry. For every second. That is what Chazal said. |
amother, I am going to go out on a limb here and hazard a guess that I have found the source for that of which you speak.
Sefer Pele Yoetz, chapter Yonkei Shadayim (nursing babies):
| Quote: |
Uvivadai she'osan hanashim sheminchos es yaldeihen yonkei shadayim sheyivku zman rav, ad sheyigmiru iskeihen, o ad di'avdi mai diva'u, asidos litein es hadin.
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Translation (due to Rabbi Mansour (opens pdfs))
| Quote: |
Women who leave their nursing children to cry for a long time – until they finish their task or whatever else they are doing – will certainly be subject to judgment in the future.
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Since we are being midayek in the words, I'd like to point out some diyukim:
1. He is talking about nursing babies here, and presumably the implication is that they are hungry.
2. He is talking about "zman rav" -- a long time -- here. Certainly not every second and for every cry and cry. I don't think that HKBH expects women to be malachim, that the second that their baby begins to cry, they are able to drop everything they are doing (including dealing with other children) in order to immediately feed him.
3. He is talking about a woman leaving a crying baby because she is finishing up a personal task. Not because she thinks it is beneficial for the baby to cry for whatever reason. (You are welcome to debate whether it is or not, but that is not what the PY is discussing.)
4. Pele Yoetz was published in 1824. It is a lovely sefer, and it is full of wise words about all different parts of life based on a Torah hashkafa, but "Chazal" it is not.
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marina
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Tue, Jul 15 2014, 1:06 pm
I'm hoping there's a din vecheshbon for rabbonim whose piskei dinim result in overwhelmed stressed mothers who have nervous breakdowns and can't stand child rearing.
Aside from a serious mental health risk, stalwart anti-cio parents also risk raising toddlers who do not know how to soothe themselves and always need entertainment.
Note that I used the work RISK. Thank you for reading what I wrote and not what you think I wrote.
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