Kamatz and Patach | Imamother

RedVines

Tue, Apr 28 2009, 9:39 pm

I dont know where this belongs, but I need some help.

I do not know the difference when speeling a word, like Shabbat, for example. I learned both vowels sounded the same and were interchangeable. I now teach in a school where it is Kamatz=uh and Patach=ah.

I am making tons of mistakes, does anyone have a few tips of how they remember, learned it etc. I am feeling pretty stupid right now, so anything would help!

Thanks

grin

Wed, Apr 29 2009, 4:12 am

the good news first: you certainly don't to feel stupid - unfortunately, it's normal to make these mistakes - my kids have told me that their grammar is better than their friends' since I taught them the ashkenic pronunciation first.

now for the bad news: I don't know if there are any shortcuts. Sit yourself down with a good grammar workbook for the next couple of months until you get the hang of it.

mummy-bh

Wed, Apr 29 2009, 4:46 pm

Raisin wrote:

I learnt kometz oh like in top. patach ah like in up. also tzerie ay as in pay and segel eh like in egg. but in sefardit both are eh. this was in england, in a lubavitch school, the accent may be slightly different in the us. now I teach in a school where they teach sefardit pronounciation.

And I'm the exact opposite! I learned the sefardi way in school, which was different to my parents' pronunciation but they just let me get on with the way I was being taught in school. This was the way I read and davened, right up until my oldest child started learning how to read, when I re-taught myself alongside learning with her. Now I read the same way as my lubavitch-educated kids do, albeit with a couple of 'slip-ups' every once in a while!

EvenI

Wed, Apr 29 2009, 5:07 pm

grin wrote:

How would a grammar book help? Do you mean to learn klallim that determine in which situations a letter gets a kometz and when it gets a patach? I just remember from having read and heard each word. I would love to know if you can recommend a good grammar book that contains this sort of detail. I never went to a frum school and never found a good grammar book.

EvenI

Wed, Apr 29 2009, 5:11 pm

RedVines wrote:

I would have thought that there are other issues as well, such as tafs and safs. Is it just kometz and patach that you find hard?

louche

Wed, Apr 29 2009, 6:56 pm

A grammar book won't help until you get to the really advanced questions, which involve whether it's a kamatz kattan or a kamtz gadol, see below. A book with good transliteration might, if you can follow the transliteration. Trouble is, what do you do with this:

Bawruch Attaw..If you're from the Midwest, you'll say Bahruch Ahttah, which is fine if you pronounce everything else American Sefaradi. If you're from the NYC area, you'll say it the way a New Yorker says the name of his city (New Yawk) (oy, even this doesn't help unless you're a new Yorker or know people who are), which is also fine, if everything else you pronounce the heavily American Ashkenazic way. Think Sherwood Goffin (pronounced Gahfin). If you've heard him sing you'll know what I mean.

A Pattach is always pronounced "AH" in any circle.
A Kamatz depends on whether it's a Kamatz katan or kamatz gadol. This is where a really good grammar book can help. It's always pronounced "aw" as in New Yawk, or sloppily "uh" as in "up" if you're speaking Ashkenazik. A kamatz gadol, the more commonly found one, is pronounced like a patach, ah, in sefardic. a kamatz kattan is pronounced "aw" as in New Yawk, but not quite so extreme--don't purse your lips so far, it's not a diphthong. Examples of kamatz kattan...Kol (all, not voice). Oniyah (boat). Vayagor sham bim'tei me'at (not vayagar, as most people say.)

the siddur called rinat yisrael marks every kamatz kattan with an extended "foot". If your eyes are good enough to see it, it's great.

EvenI

Wed, Apr 29 2009, 7:12 pm

louche wrote:

I don't think this is the OP's problem. AFAIK, the reason why the siddur Rina Yisrael marks every kometz koton is to serve those who use sephardic pronunciation and only pronounce komotz kotons differently from a patach, whereas they pronounce kometz godols like patachs.

The way I understand the OP, is that she knows how to pronounce a kometz and how to pronounce a patach - she just needs to know when to spell with each.

grin

Thu, Apr 30 2009, 1:14 am

EvenI wrote:

grin wrote:

actually, I learned dikduk in school with a lot of drudgery, but it worked: After finding a book that has the proper spelling for all forms of the verb in all the binyanim, start copying out, first for simple verbs, then working your way up to the atypical forms.

you can check out of any of these are useful:
http://www.scrollandscreen.com.....r.htm

hadasa

Sun, May 03 2009, 10:43 am

mummy-bh wrote:

Raisin wrote:

LOL! Raisin, you're English! Americans pronounce "top" with a patach and "up" with a kamatz, so you're really confusing things here!