Name dilema- not sure what to do- really long

amother

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 8:26 am

My husband and I arent sure what to do about names.

For a while, he said that if its a boy he wants to name after his grandfather. I said that if he really wants to, we can. There is nothing wrong with the name, its classic, etc. We're not particularly in love with the name, and my husband said that if it werent his grandfather's name he probably wouldn't use it. But no issue with the name itself, its nice enough, even if not a jaw dropping AMAZING name. But when there is an emotional component involved of naming after someone who meant a lot to you, you don't need a PERFECT name, just a good, decent name.

So I was speaking to my husband last night about the name he had said he wanted, the name his grandfather had. I asked him why particularly he wanted that name; was it because he felt close to his grandfather and loved him and hence he wants to have a child with the same name, because of positive memories with his grandfather? (A perfectly great reason, and if he said yes, I probably would have stopped my questions there.)

He said that the reason he wants to give the name is because it would be the right thing to do, it would be good for his grandfather's neshama, and because it probably would make his father happy.

Now my husband and most of his family are estranged from their father because he really hasnt been treating his family well. I think this is just a misguided attempt to patch up things with his father, and if it were an additional reason to name the baby that, then fine. But since that seems to be the main reason, I am thinking that that's not a good enough reason. Why not? Because if we give our child a name we're not in love with merely to make FIL happy, and yet the relationship with FIL doesnt improve, I can imagine resentment forming. I don't think naming a kid a name merely to make someone happy is the right thing, especially if your relationship with this person is tenuous at best, and its possible that his father could care less, as there is already a grandchild named after fil's father.

So there leaves the point of it being good for the grandfather's neshama. Ok, valid point, but you need a name that is going to be good for your kid, and not just good for the namesake.

I asked my husband if he'd be happy if our kid turned out like his grandfather, if his grandfather was someone he wants our child to grow up to be like him. (Not an accusing question, just curious, because I really don't know, I never met his grandfather, only DH knows if he'd be happy with a kid turning out like him.)

My husband said that he only really knew his grandfather when he was really old (80's and 90's) and often, with age, people get more cranky and stubborn and set in their ways. So he said that the grandfather he remembers was a stubborn man, cranky, a bit of a temper, but my husband said he probably would accredit that to his age; he doesnt know if grandfather was like that when he was younger. (I wouldn't say its not a possibility, because his son, my FIL, was terribly abusive and with a massive massive temper, and it happens sometimes that people learn things like that from their parents...) My husband said that there were also good points about him, but wasnt really able to list what they were...

In terms of religiosity, see this thread I started.
http://imamother.com/forum/vie.....35061

My husband's grandfather was brought up in Europe in a religious family till approximately bar mitzva. (He spoke often about the cheider he learned in.) This was right before the holocaust. Miraculously the family was able to move to "the new world" 2 years before the Nazis took control of their country.
The allure of the "new world" was too tough to bear, and the grandfather became not religious, as did many of his siblings. He still felt a warmth for yiddishkeit, and when he had difficulty having children, leined ne'ilah one yom kippur, and within a year, FIL was born. He boasted that he "sent his son for bar mitzva lessons", to show how much he valued frumkeit. And had a seder every year, AFAIK.
When he got old, he started putting on tefillin every day.

Now I'm not sure how I feel about this grandfather as a namesake for my child. Its one thing if he grew up non religious and stayed non religious. But the fact that he had a frum background and left it for the allure of the "new world" bugs me... I don't know if I want my child named after someone who left frumkeit, even if he never became anti religious. Especially because I know names have a big effect on someone's neshama, I don't know what kind of effect the name of a person who went off the derech would have on his neshama.

However, if it boiled down to "Even with all this, my grandfather was special to me and it would make me feel good to name after him" I'd acquiesce.
But thats not the case. It seems more of an "it'll be good for his neshama" and "it might repair family ties" than a "It would mean a lot to me to be able to name after my grandfather".

Ok, so thats part one.
If that name is out of the picture, we're kind of at a loss for names.

The other idea we had was to name after a gadol who meant a lot to us, someone we really admire and look up to and would want our child to emulate, the Michtav Me'Eliyahu, Rav Eliyahu Eliezer Dessler.
My husband and I both agree that we'd love to name after the michtav meeliyahu, however, his name is REALLY long, quite a mouthful.
Though, honestly, I can see myself getting used to it. You say Eliyahu Eliezer enough times fast and it kinda flows into a "Liyaou liezer", not nearly as many syllables. I have a friend with almost as many syllables in her name (7, instead of 8) and though the first few times I called her that was strange, I got used to her long name and in time thought nothing of it. Its all a matter of what you get used to.
My husband though, thinks its too long. He likes the name Eliyahu though, and I said, perhaps you dont have to call by the full name, just by the first name, and he said he'd think about it.

So those are our two "concrete" options, both with their issues though.

Aside for that, we have a list of 6 "ok" names, that we're not in love with but we don't mind using. But none of them really "speak to us" and draw us the way the first two names do.

I dunno what to do.

Someone suggested names from the parsha when I'm due, but I'm due around parshios that have no names mentioned aside for moshe, which is not our style name...
Help?
(And for those that say "Wait till the baby is born", because I know how hectic and stressful it is post baby, and because we make sure to have the name pass approval from a rav first, and because we're so picky with names, we don't want to wait until after the baby is born to settle on a name, though I understand those that do.)

amother

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 8:57 am

My DH was estranged from his parents when DD was born, we named her after DH's maternal grandmother, this is the first (and only) grandchild named after her mother and I thought she would be really touched....guess what? It didnt help anything.... Sad

However, the major reason we named DD after this grandmother was because DH had wonderful memories of her and felt very close to her, not davka because it could heal the rift.

ss321

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 9:23 am

First of all, I wouldn't stress over this too much. They say that parents when naming a child are given a certain 'ruach hakodesh' if you will. so if it is not coming together right now, the last thing you need for your unborn child is that anxiety and stress.

With regard to naming for the grandfather, I say go for it. Sounds like you are not into naming and then not using the name. if you really cannot see yourself ever using it (since giving it as a middle name sounds out of the ? for u), then I guess skip it. but if your concern is that he wasnt as frum as you would like your kid to be consider that a) he was frum in the end of his life b) his raised kids with enough of a cnnection to yiddishkeit for you to end up marrying and having a family with and c) he is a holocaust survivor, so whatever he kept afterward, is amazing in and of itself.

With regard to naming for Rav Dessler,I think that is also a beautiful idea, but I (no offense, just being brutally honest here) would really pity a child who insisted (or whose parents insisted) that he be called "eliyahu eliezer" or(as you suggested) "liyahu liezer" - not fair to preschoolers, not fair to teachers, and not fair to classmates later on. most of all - not fair to the kid. that is a tongue twister of a name if I have ever heard one. ELI is nice though. Wink

. Sorry, again, just being honest.

IDK. My sibs and I all have lots of names, we go by the first one. And my DH's sibs as well - the sisters have some frummy yiddish first names and sometimes (in their opinions) pretty Hebrew ones after that, and some go by the yiddish versions, some go by the hebrew. We gave our kids >1 name, some people call by the first, some by the second, some both, some a nickname. Whatever works. But asking that people (your parents, your friends, the kid himself) call your son ELIYAHU ELIEZER - gosh - 8 syllables of a tongue twister IMO is very tough!

amother

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 9:31 am

SS321, I agree with you about the tongue twister.

I mean that I'D probably have no problem using the full name, but wouldnt expect others to use the full name. Eli, Elya, eliyahu, etc... all those would do. Would have to ask a rav about giving a name and not using the whole thing all the time though.

As for grandpops name, as it is, its 3 names, we need to ask the rav if we can take out the name added at the end of his life, and we definitely won't do three names, so wouldnt add that as a "second name" to another name...
Grandfather wasnt religious at the end of his life- tefillin was the only thing he DID do... But I mentioned that to show he cared about yiddishkeit somewhat, at least when he was at the end of his life.
But my real issue is that my husband and I arent in love with the name, and he seems to only want to name after to make his father happy, and not because he was in love with his grandfather. Ya know what I mean?

amother

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 9:41 am

OP here.

For our other kids, we only gave one or two short names that we wouldnt mind calling our kids by all the time, because we heard its best to be called by your full name.
But I'll admit- I rarely if ever call my husband by his full name, I usually use a nickname.
And I have two names, and I NEVER am called by my second name, because I don't really care for it, and it doesnt feel like me. In a way I wish I could get rid of my second name because its more an annoyance than anything else...
So we're not OVERLY makpid on always using full names. For our children, so far we have, but mom and pops don't use full names...

Atali

Wed, Jul 08 2009, 11:00 am

My thoughts:

1. I would try to find out more about what GF was like when he was younger, personality-wise. To me, the fact that he started putting on tefillin again shows that he was trying to do teshuva but just couldn't manage fully at his age, so I would think that is a mitigating factor.

2. I also like the R'Dessler idea, but the full name is too much of a mouthful. I would either recommend calling by one full name (Eliyahu or Eliezer) or doing a nickname for both, such as Elya Leizer.

Alternatively, maybe you can find out what R' Dessler was actually called. Did he go by his full name or did he go by just one of them or a nickname? I did read a biography of R' Dessler once (there is an excellent one from Artscroll) but I cannot remember if it mentioned anything.