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-> Halachic Questions and Discussions
Clarissa
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 Thu, Jun 25 2009, 7:32 am
| Mimisinger wrote: | | Clarissa wrote: | | ...according to OZ. |
Yes, according to OZ. Are there any other lists out there by Orthodox Rabbis helping you to determine which hechshers are reliable and which are not? | We're comfortable if we know something about the certification itself, as it's easy to find the name of the person or organization that certifies. We don't rely on a list. It's fine if you do, but we don't belong to OZ, and while their list is great, they don't include some restaurants which we trust. I think it's totally fine for you to use this list, and all lists are resources, but sometimes the issue of kashrut certification can become a bit...political. The only time we used a list was when we knew we were going to be in a particular town (out of town) and had no idea what was there, so it helped us locate. But I don't know that I'd rely on it as a way to eliminate possible restaurants that do have certification, as the rabbi who wrote it might have different ideas of what makes a place not kosher than we do, and, as I said, politics can enter the picture -- I have heard of that. I used to post on the Chowhounds Kosher board, and the craziness of getting and changing and losing certification created a very strange climate for diners. Anyway, nothing against the OZ rabbi. I might use the list to find a place, but I wouldn't use it to dismiss a place that didn't make the list.
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Mimisinger
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Thu, Jun 25 2009, 8:05 am
| Clarissa wrote: | | Mimisinger wrote: | | Clarissa wrote: | | ...according to OZ. |
Yes, according to OZ. Are there any other lists out there by Orthodox Rabbis helping you to determine which hechshers are reliable and which are not? | We're comfortable if we know something about the certification itself, as it's easy to find the name of the person or organization that certifies. We don't rely on a list. It's fine if you do, but we don't belong to OZ, and while their list is great, they don't include some restaurants which we trust. I think it's totally fine for you to use this list, and all lists are resources, but sometimes the issue of kashrut certification can become a bit...political. The only time we used a list was when we knew we were going to be in a particular town (out of town) and had no idea what was there, so it helped us locate. But I don't know that I'd rely on it as a way to eliminate possible restaurants that do have certification, as the rabbi who wrote it might have different ideas of what makes a place not kosher than we do, and, as I said, politics can enter the picture -- I have heard of that. I used to post on the Chowhounds Kosher board, and the craziness of getting and changing and losing certification created a very strange climate for diners. Anyway, nothing against the OZ rabbi. I might use the list to find a place, but I wouldn't use it to dismiss a place that didn't make the list. |
That may be fine for you, but how does one know about how reliable a kashrus organization is? Do you call them up and ask them questions? Would you just trust any restaurant with a hechsher, feeling, well it has one, at least someone is watching it. It's ok for me? I don't know about all of the different hechshers, so how have you researched them, or do you just not?
I have to ask, all of these other restaurant, have you asked an Orthodox Rabbi whether they're ok to go to, or do you just decide on your own? Meaning, you don't have to ask R' Schwartz as he's not your Rav, but have you asked your Rabbi? What did he say??
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Clarissa
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Thu, Jun 25 2009, 8:11 am
First of all, I'm comfortable finding out from friends, and I trust my husband, who has lived here a long time. Second of all, I don't expect others to feel as I do. When someone comes who may be more strict or rely on more stringent guidelines, I don't attempt to take them out to a restaurant whose certification might not meet their standards. So I tell them who certifies, whether the restaurant is open on Shabbat, etc. What does my saying that OZ's list is OZ's list have to do with what I do, anyway? Even if I ate at McDonald's, I'd say this about OZ's list. Sorry, but it is political, there are good rabbis out there who do certification but don't belong to large organizations, and there are some large organizations that are sometimes inconsistent, making determinations for reasons other than the food and its prep.
I honestly don't understand what my opinion of these lists (that they're helpful but might be limited) has to do with what I personally do. Even friends of mine who only trust certain agencies and rabbis agree that the lists are helpful but really don't tell the whole story, sometimes. All I said, which bothered you, is that OZ's list is fine, but it is OZ's list.
note: I know McDonald's is an extreme example, but it makes my point. Read Chowhounds kosher board and watch the fights. My rabbi says this. Well, my rabbi doesn't. This certification was changed, therefore the place isn't reliable. This place isn't kosher because they had a meal on a Shabbat that my rabbi didn't approve of, because it was New Years. This place is better than that place, because my brother-in-law is the mashgiach, and he says the guy who does the second place was seen out one day, and his wife was wearing blah blah blah. The same stuff you see here.
Last edited by Clarissa on Thu, Jun 25 2009, 8:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mimisinger
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Thu, Jun 25 2009, 8:14 am
| Clarissa wrote: | | Mimisinger wrote: | | Clarissa wrote: | | ...according to OZ. |
Yes, according to OZ. Are there any other lists out there by Orthodox Rabbis helping you to determine which hechshers are reliable and which are not? | We're comfortable if we know something about the certification itself, as it's easy to find the name of the person or organization that certifies. We don't rely on a list. It's fine if you do, but we don't belong to OZ, and while their list is great, they don't include some restaurants which we trust. I think it's totally fine for you to use this list, and all lists are resources, but sometimes the issue of kashrut certification can become a bit...political. The only time we used a list was when we knew we were going to be in a particular town (out of town) and had no idea what was there, so it helped us locate. But I don't know that I'd rely on it as a way to eliminate possible restaurants that do have certification, as the rabbi who wrote it might have different ideas of what makes a place not kosher than we do, and, as I said, politics can enter the picture -- I have heard of that. I used to post on the Chowhounds Kosher board, and the craziness of getting and changing and losing certification created a very strange climate for diners. Anyway, nothing against the OZ rabbi. I might use the list to find a place, but I wouldn't use it to dismiss a place that didn't make the list. |
This is what I was referring to. You brought up what you do, so I questioned it. Don't worry, I'm going to find my own way, not follow you.
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Clarissa
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Thu, Jun 25 2009, 8:17 am
Woo woo, very cool of you to highlight that I said that we aren't going to rely on a list, and then say that you're not going to follow us. Please highlight the line where I said that you should follow us? I've never, ever suggested that people do as I do. Honestly, are you the rebbitzin at OZ or something? Or the head of the membership committee? Let it go, some of us don't belong there. It's a perfectly fine shul. Lovely.
Shame on me for not using OZ's rabbi (your husband?) as my final authority on NYC kashrut. We all know here on Imamother that there is only one true authority on all Jewish issues, right?
Last edited by Clarissa on Thu, Jun 25 2009, 8:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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Clarissa
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Thu, Jun 25 2009, 8:20 am
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Wow, a distant memory just came up for me, way back when I was first on Imamother, when you got all huffy about me saying that we dined at one of the Indian vegetarian restaurants and liked it. The thread was ultimately deleted for some reason, but it's coming back to me, now. So this is obviously a hot button issue for you. I understand that, there are hot button issues for all of us, including me.
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Mimisinger
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Thu, Jun 25 2009, 8:39 am
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Very interesting Clarissa, someone questions what you do and you get personal. No, Rabbi Schwartz is not my husband, nor my Rav. It's not a hot button issue for me, nor do I really care what you personally do. It seems whatever you can't joke your way out of, you get personal and start to attack. Enjoy.
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princessleah
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Thu, Jun 25 2009, 8:43 am
OP, would you mind telling me what restaurant you were asking about? I'm curious and I know about a lot of these places.
Where I grew up, there was a bagel store that was open on Shabbat. A lot of people ate there, I think my family didn't. But the people who ate there would never go Saturday night, in order to avoid eating food that was cooked on Shabbat. Eventually, they got the supervision of our local Va'ad once they started closing on Shabbat.
And as far as Dunkin' Donuts, NOTHING is cooked there. Have you ever watched them "cook" your egg sandwich? The egg is in this bizarre pre-molded square shape and it is put in the microwave. (gross-- but ... yum). A lot of these places rely on "Shtar Mechira," I think, if they are owned by Jews, they "sell" the store for Saturdays to a non-Jew.
I'm going to check out Chowhounds!
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Clarissa
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Thu, Jun 25 2009, 8:46 am
Very interesting, Mimisinger. When I said it's OZ's list, you got offended. It is OZ's list. Why that should offend you, I don't know. You're the one who asked what I do. Frankly, no matter what I do, stating it's OZ's list was merely stating a fact, like my hair is brown.
People really think everybody should follow the same authorities they do, here. That's a shame, because in the real world, there are many rabbis and many ways to observe. If you're bothered that others do differently than you it's probably best not to engage in discourse with others who do differently. There's a big world of Jews out there.
I did make a joke, and I deleted it. I don't joke my way out of things (that's a pretty nasty comment, by the way, and maybe another hot button issue for you is your lack of ability to do the same) but I do make jokes. I like making jokes. If you don't like my jokes, put me on Ignore. I'd consider myself proud to be on your ignore list. (eta -- your comment about my making jokes on Imamother was just about the most personal thing said here, or anywhere lately. Notice I didn't comment about your general posting, but stick to the issue at hand.)
I deleted my joke because I remembered that restaurant certification is a hot button issue for you, for whatever reason (we don't know each other in real life) but it may be because of a husband or family member who is involved. Who knows. A man I met who owned a food-related business told me wild stories about the people involved in certification, which I won't repeat here, because someone might recognize the people in the story. But for whatever reason this is a thing for you, and I realized making a little joke to lighten things up wouldn't work to lighten things up. And obviously you're hostile about my jokes, so I'm glad I didn't bother.
By the way, you're the one who got personal, by asking what I do.
| Mimisinger wrote: | Do you call them up and ask them questions? Would you just trust any restaurant with a hechsher, feeling, well it has one, at least someone is watching it. It's ok for me? I don't know about all of the different hechshers, so how have you researched them, or do you just not?
I have to ask, all of these other restaurant, have you asked an Orthodox Rabbi whether they're ok to go to, or do you just decide on your own? Meaning, you don't have to ask R' Schwartz as he's not your Rav, but have you asked your Rabbi? What did he say?? | Maybe you need to reread your own posts. You're the one who asked about what lists we use, whether we consult rabbis, etc. Who got personal, again?
Last edited by Clarissa on Thu, Jun 25 2009, 9:11 am; edited 4 times in total
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Clarissa
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Thu, Jun 25 2009, 8:50 am
| princessleah wrote: | | I'm going to check out Chowhounds! | The funny thing is, the powers that be had privately asked me to monitor what went on on the Kosher board, because they felt all of the infighting and judgmental stuff had nothing to do with the purpose of the site. But it got too unpleasant, and totally defeated the purpose of the place. When I stopped posting there, it was because people started to boss other people around telling them which lists to use, which rabbis to trust, question the certification they trusted, accuse each other of being bad Jews all the time because other people did differently, and there were the expected questions which were, in fact, accusing other posters of not really being kosher. In the end, there were about five restaurants or caterers that it was safe to discuss, because of all of the bossiness, the "do as I do, or I'll question you," stuff. Hmmm....
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princessleah
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Thu, Jun 25 2009, 9:34 am
| Clarissa wrote: | | princessleah wrote: | | I'm going to check out Chowhounds! | The funny thing is, the powers that be had privately asked me to monitor what went on on the Kosher board, because they felt all of the infighting and judgmental stuff had nothing to do with the purpose of the site. But it got too unpleasant, and totally defeated the purpose of the place. When I stopped posting there, it was because people started to boss other people around telling them which lists to use, which rabbis to trust, question the certification they trusted, accuse each other of being bad Jews all the time because other people did differently, and there were the expected questions which were, in fact, accusing other posters of not really being kosher. In the end, there were about five restaurants or caterers that it was safe to discuss, because of all of the bossiness, the "do as I do, or I'll question you," stuff. Hmmm.... |
I just checked it out. It looked kind of boring.
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Clarissa
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Thu, Jun 25 2009, 9:38 am
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I left a couple of years ago. I've only checked in once or twice since then, but I think some of the more interesting posters are gone. Chowhound (not the Kosher board) is a good resource, though. The Home Cooking board is great for asking cooking questions, and the food media board has some fun stuff, sometimes. I don't go there much and post there very rarely, but they can be helpful. I thought the Kosher board became pretty weak and redundant, not to mention annoying.
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Mirabelle
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Thu, Jun 25 2009, 9:39 am
| Clarissa wrote: | First of all, I'm comfortable finding out from friends, and I trust my husband, who has lived here a long time. Second of all, I don't expect others to feel as I do. When someone comes who may be more strict or rely on more stringent guidelines, I don't attempt to take them out to a restaurant whose certification might not meet their standards. So I tell them who certifies, whether the restaurant is open on Shabbat, etc. What does my saying that OZ's list is OZ's list have to do with what I do, anyway? Even if I ate at McDonald's, I'd say this about OZ's list. Sorry, but it is political, there are good rabbis out there who do certification but don't belong to large organizations, and there are some large organizations that are sometimes inconsistent, making determinations for reasons other than the food and its prep.
I honestly don't understand what my opinion of these lists (that they're helpful but might be limited) has to do with what I personally do. Even friends of mine who only trust certain agencies and rabbis agree that the lists are helpful but really don't tell the whole story, sometimes. All I said, which bothered you, is that OZ's list is fine, but it is OZ's list.
note: I know McDonald's is an extreme example, but it makes my point. Read Chowhounds kosher board and watch the fights. My rabbi says this. Well, my rabbi doesn't. This certification was changed, therefore the place isn't reliable. This place isn't kosher because they had a meal on a Shabbat that my rabbi didn't approve of, because it was New Years. This place is better than that place, because my brother-in-law is the mashgiach, and he says the guy who does the second place was seen out one day, and his wife was wearing blah blah blah. The same stuff you see here. |
darn straight about the political part. I know, first hand, some CRAZY stories which I will not post here, but they involve some very "reliable" hashgachot, like Chof-k.
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Ariellush
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Mon, Feb 15 2010, 6:53 am
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In Israel, as far as I know, they wouldn't get an hechsher if they are open on Shabbat.
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Tamiri
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Mon, Feb 15 2010, 6:57 am
| Ariellush wrote: | | In Israel, as far as I know, they wouldn't get an hechsher if they are open on Shabbat. | This is an old thread, but what do you call the hotel dining rooms which are open on Shabbat? They sell meals before Shabbat. A restaurant which cooks on Shabbat would not get a teuda, but one that only serves (with proper hashgacha, of course) can certainly get one.
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Ariellush
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Thu, Feb 25 2010, 1:23 pm
| Tamiri wrote: | | Ariellush wrote: | | In Israel, as far as I know, they wouldn't get an hechsher if they are open on Shabbat. | This is an old thread, but what do you call the hotel dining rooms which are open on Shabbat? They sell meals before Shabbat. A restaurant which cooks on Shabbat would not get a teuda, but one that only serves (with proper hashgacha, of course) can certainly get one. |
I am talking exclusively about restaurants.
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