Taking my young DD to a Shiva

Chayalle

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 12:34 pm

I feel so sad posting this question. My DD is too young for this but...

DD is nearly Bat Mitzvah, and now a former classmate and friend of hers has lost her father. This girl was in her class from kindergarten onwards, till they split her class last year. They were friendly and visited each other after school, etc...I'm on friendly terms with the girl's mother, an absolutely lovely person. I feel so sad for this family.

I will B"EH go to the Shiva and I think it's appropriate to take DD along, to see her friend. I don't want to take her unprepared, so I would like your advice on this topic. How should I prepare DD for this?

ididit

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 12:56 pm

there's no way to properly prepare, except for the common sense stuff of what NOT to do...

altho, before you go, you might want to discuss with your DD any stories/memories of her friend's father. if her friend is interested in talking DD could offer her good memories, or lessons she learned from him. just sitting nearby and listening is always the best advice.

may there be no more need for these visits... Crying

shalhevet

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 1:00 pm

Is her friend already bat mitzva and sitting shiva? If her friend isn't 12 yet, the friend doesn't need to sit and I don't know if it's appropriate to take your dd.

Interesting (and Sad

) you brought this up today - I took dd aged 14 to a shiva for the first time today. She didn't want to go, but there are girls around her age Sad

sitting who she knows a little, and I thought she should go.

I told her she doesn't need to say anything if she doesn't feel comfortable, and the point is to listen. I told her the halacha that we wait for the person sitting to speak first. I don't quite know what happened in the end, because there are so many people sitting shiva Sad

that the women/girls were in 3 separate rooms and she went to the room with the young girls.

She seemed fine afterwards, and I davka think nichum aveilim also needs chinuch, though I only think it's appropriate from around bar/bas mitzva onwards - I said to her I hope she never has to go again u'vala hamaves lanetzach.

Chayalle

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 1:23 pm

Quote:

Is her friend already bat mitzva and sitting shiva? If her friend isn't 12 yet, the friend doesn't need to sit and I don't know if it's appropriate to take your dd.

No she isn't 12 yet - in fact when I told DD the sad news she said "I feel so bad that she won't have him at her Bat Mitzvah, her birthday is Sept. 1st and mine is just two weeks later".

Even though she isn't officially sitting Shiva yet, I'm sure she will be there. She is the youngest in her family so I can't imagine that she won't be part of it...so I think it's appropriate for DD to go. She also has a sister who is just a year older and DD spent time with her too, whenever she was at their house.

Quote:

and I davka think nichum aveilim also needs chinuch, though I only think it's appropriate from around bar/bas mitzva onwards - I said to her I hope she never has to go again u'vala hamaves lanetzach.

This is exactly how I feel, and since DD is just borderline that age Sad

I feel so sad for the family and I feel that it's appropriate to teach DD to feel for others at such a time. And I hope this is the only time she ever is in this situation.

I have also heard from others who sat Shiva (B"H I never have myself though DH has) that they remember exactly who came and who didn't....and they were able to talk later, when they needed to, to those who came. So since this is a good friend of DD's who she still has contact with even though they switched classes...in the future her friend may be more comfortable talking about her father, if the connection starts now.

May Moshiach come already, and may we know no more of these tzaros.

seeker

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 1:35 pm

Definitely appropriate for DD to go (imho...)

Warn her that she may very likely feel uncomfortable and that it is OK and she can discuss her feelings with you afterward if she wants. Tell her that she doesn't have to worry about what to say, because if she doesn't know what to say then it is entirely OK to just sit quietly with her friend and just respond if her friend chooses to talk. Tell her about the "hamakom" phrase that is traditional to say before leaving, it will probably be posted so she doesn't have to memorize it.

Make sure she knows it's not a social visit; if she sees other people she knows there it's not the time for greetings and shmoozings.

Garden-Gnome

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 1:49 pm

I was "menachem avel" a friend when we were in 3rd grade when she lost her mother. My parents explained to me that the men would daven, what kadish was and why we do it, and that my friend might or might not want to talk. I knew that I was going to show my friend that I care and that I was sad that this had happened.
I ended up sitting with my friend and some other classmates, talking about school.
I think it's an appropriate thing to do, as long as your DD knows why she's going.

Brown

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 3:17 pm

My brothers and I sat shiva as children. Having another friend along might make her feel less uncomfortable. Being quiet is fine. It really does make it easier to be together afterwards. Most kids those ages don't want to speak to friends about their parent so the conversation stays general.

Barbara

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 3:38 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Thanks to all of you for your responses. I spoke to DD about going, and that she doesn't have to say anything - that just being there is ok and she can just sit and take her cues from her friend. She seems more comfortable with the idea now.

Your daughter sounds like a lovely young lady, who is being raised well.

Ob some other comments, *no one* feels comfortable going into a shiva home. *No one* wants to go. But its part of life, and its certainly something that we need to teach our children how to do. And whether or not the child is officially *sitting shiva* due to her age, she lost her father, and is sad. She's entitled to the comfort that a shiva call brings.

shalhevet

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 4:19 pm

Barbara wrote:

And whether or not the child is officially *sitting shiva* due to her age, she lost her father, and is sad. She's entitled to the comfort that a shiva call brings.

There is no mitzva of chinuch for aveilus, so a child under bas mitzva can do what she wants eg go to school or play. By sending a friend to be 'menachem avel' you are effectively making her sit shiva, and she might not have chosen to do so - of course, a close to 12 year old will probably choose to sit, especially if she is the youngest. It might be worth checking out first what is happening.

Dd had a friend in this awful position of her father being niftar a few weeks before her bas mitzva. She had the strange situation of not being obliged in shiva and sheloshim, but then had to start keeping aveilus on the day of her bas mitzva, which was still within the year. They had a bas mitzva party in school, and they moved it specially between the sheloshim (so her mother could come) and her bas mitzva, which was maybe two or three weeks later.

Isramom8

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 6:02 pm

My best friend's father passed away when we were 12/13, and of course I went. We went up to her room, and she laughed a little and cried a little. Kids should just be there for their friends. It can be informal.

We took our daughters ages 10 and 8 last summer to be menachem avel friends whose father was niftar. They mainly played. That's how kids are there for one another.

me4

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 11:27 pm

Totally appropriate to take your daughter just make sure its as a positive experience as possible, meaning: there are quite a few late teens/mid twenties girls that feel so uncomfortable going to a shiva house that they do not go even if they are quite friendly with that person. I think people need to realize/learn that sitting shiva is to help people and that its important to go.

Chayalle

Fri, Aug 06 2010, 1:58 pm

Thanks for all your replies.

I took my DD and though she was shy, I feel it was the right thing to do. Her friend was sitting in the room with the rest of her family, and DD sat by her friend and they spoke quietly for a few minutes, then she said HaMakom Yenachem and we left.

One of the SIL's there told me that it's so important for the girls to come, because it will help her to transition to the school year B"EH if she feels that she has supportive friends waiting for her.