which place would you rather live?

shabbatiscoming

Sat, Nov 13 2010, 2:42 pm

this a theoretical question, my husband and I were talking about this today at lunch.

Would you rather live some place where it might be a little bit more frum than you are but many if not all of your friends live there or some place where you know nobody but it is on the exact wavelength frum wise?

I said one thing and my husband said the other Smile

so I was just wondering what most people would want.

hannah95

Sat, Nov 13 2010, 2:44 pm

I'd move where the community fits. Friends will stay friends, wherever you live Smile

Ruchel

Sat, Nov 13 2010, 2:50 pm

It's hard to say. If the community fits in attitude and hashkafa just a bit frummer, it may be worth it to be near friends. If it's clearly not a match, no.

DrMom

Sat, Nov 13 2010, 2:58 pm

How easily do you (and your children) make new friends?

In the frummer place, is there someplace you'd feel comfortable sending your children to school (if that's applicable)?

How welcoming are they to those with a slightly less frum hashkafa?

freidasima

Sat, Nov 13 2010, 3:07 pm

Well I don't really have any friends in my neighborhood today, they all live all over the country. And many aren't frum at all. So...

shabbatiscoming

Sat, Nov 13 2010, 3:09 pm

DrMom wrote:

all great questions Smile

shabbatiscoming

Sat, Nov 13 2010, 3:19 pm

freidasima wrote:

Well I don't really have any friends in my neighborhood today, they all live all over the country. And many aren't frum at all. So...

OK, but if you had to choose one of the options, that was my question.

mandksima

Sat, Nov 13 2010, 3:35 pm

If it is not just hypothetical and you want to apply this to Israel, you may have different answers. I'm trying to picture what is "frummer" than a standard DL community and yet is not Charedi. A Torani community perhaps? I am not really familiar with any that are not Anglo areas which are very expensive and honestly, I didn't feel comfortable there. I found a few different communities sort of like that but unless they have their own schools, you either send kids to a charedi school (which I doubt they'd get into) or a DL Torani school which has kids that aren't as Torani but are still on the DL spectrum so you might as well live in a DL area.

Israel is just so black and white. I have to say I have had this deliberation myself. We lived in charediville when we first were married. I liked the pros but the cons were just too many for me. It took a while for me to internalize that I could find a DL community that was just as "frum" but in a different way. As long as I follow an Orthodox rav that I respect and feel is fulfilling the mitzvot correctly, I can be assured that I am not remiss in my observance. I don't have to be charedi and fit into a little box. I don't think any description lays between me and a description of charedi, meaning, any "frummer" and I would just be labeled charedi. It is just a label in my eyes as the only difference is chumrot really, style of dress and separation from the outside influences, not halacha.

At this point in my life, raising kids here who find it difficult to fit in to begin with, I need to live in an accepting community where anything goes to an extent. Even for myself I need it. I have friends that really differ religiously but all are still part of the Orthodox community here. It is nice that we all are friends and don't judge each other. To each his own. Can't find that in the charediville I lived in. Definitely certain people can be accepting but not schools, shidduch system, etc. What do you mean when you say "frummer"? What is frummer than you that is not charedi?

I wouldn't worry about not knowing people before you move to a community. If it is the right fit, you will make friends. I am not exceptionally social but there are amazing people all around to chose from. My friends here are like extended family. I used to live in a city with tons of college friends and I really didn't make that many new friends, I just stuck with the ones I had already.

In my last community, I picked randomly without checking out frumkeit or neighbors. I soon regretted it. Sounds like the situation you're in. I couldn't be happier choosing the community for its people rather than other things. It was also pretty cheap at the time. Wink

Also, even though bad middot bother me everywhere, I am much more bothered by lack of good middot when I am in a so called "frummer" area. I'd rather be in a place where people don't profess to be something that they are not. Much more honest. I guess what I'm trying to get at is "frummer" doesn't necessarily mean better. It depends on the people there, not the style of dress or what not.

Sorry, I rambled on...

freidasima

Sat, Nov 13 2010, 3:35 pm

neither would be an option. I would never live in an all religious neighborhood, that's not for me. I don't care less where my friends live, they are my friends whether in Afula or in Beersheva or on the other side of yerushalyaim.

If you are considered the shaygets in the neighborhood it isn't fun.
If you are a SAHM and need friends nearby and they aren't they that isn't fun either.
Just depends where you come from. I have never been home since age zilch, except for a few weeks here and there for hufshat leida and most of that time I fed and slept. So...not an inyan.
I also don't give a hoot what my neighbors think of me so that isn't an issue anyhow.

But if you need friends around then live with your friends and play the game of looking and talking more frum and do whatever the heck you want at home anyhow. Half the world does it anyhow...

Ruchel

Sat, Nov 13 2010, 3:50 pm

I would love a shomer mitsvos only place, even a "committed" frum only place, but I would go crazy if there was only one type around. Like, a community where tons of people of similar hashkafa and shitta and level moved in. Rare in Europe where most communities build in time, successive waves, individual arrivals, etc, but I hear common elsewhere.

That said there are advantages to "one type only" communities, for sure. But you have to fit 100%. And not be bored.

TehillaHadassah

Sat, Nov 13 2010, 7:32 pm

I'm going to answer before I read the other comments. I would much rather live where people are more frum than we are. I think we learn that we are to find good neighbors. I always understood that to mean that we will be on our best behavior all the time. There a lot more personal reasons why I would love to live in a more frum community and had much of my life. Just very thankful that there are outreach programs that make it possible for families like us and our neighbors to have a community at all.

TwinsMommy

Sat, Nov 13 2010, 10:58 pm

I laugh that we are *the* family in this neighborhood who watches television. My husband wears colored shirts and even a green suit. We're probably among the most left wing in our neighborhood but extremely comfortable here--- everyone is warm and welcoming. Not everyone uses the internet but many do so I have company there. Smile

When I was on bedrest with my pregnancy I watched a lot of tv--- Rebbetzins who certainly don't have tv in their homes would walk right into my bedroom, see my tv on, and lovingly say: "what's on?"

On the other hand, we used to live in a more left wing community--- women didn't cover their hair, wore pants, etc etc. When I went to shul in a snood or shaitel I got stares. I really didn't feel like a part of the community and my group of friends there was smaller and more like me.

So personally, we like being in a community that's either where we are hashgafikly or to the right of us. To the left of us isn't so comfy.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Nov 14 2010, 8:36 am

so nobody here would move to a neighborhood just because many of your friends lived there (and they were on the same religious wavelength as you) but as a whole the neighborhood was mostly more religious than you and your friends (but a smallish onclave of people that were the same religiousness as you and your friends)

hope that all made sense.

Tablepoetry

Sun, Nov 14 2010, 8:46 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

That would be me. I would move to where my friends live in a heartbeat. I don't make friends easily, but I love having them around. In fact, it usually takes me years to make friends - and I can't recall making any 'real' ones in the last decade.

I would love to live next to good friends or close family. We used to live next to several friends many years ago, and it was lovely, we shared many, many a Shabbat meal. There was always someone we could just pop in and visit on a long evening or a long Shabbat afternoon. Or if we were lucky and got hold of a babysitter, there was always someone available to go out for coffee.

Now I have none of that. Maybe some of you who chose the 'friendless' neighbourhood don't have a problem making new friends. But my dh and I are so busy with our lives and families, and we are not socially that smooth.....which makes us kind of loners. You have to be very pro-active (and not socially gauche) to make new friends as adults.

So in short, I would choose the place with friends, if as you say, there was enough of a group for us to feel like we have our own sub-culture there. And if there were suitable schools which did not oppose my values, or force me to frum-up my kids beyond what I feel is comfortable.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Nov 14 2010, 3:14 pm

thanks everyone for your answers.

its interesting, on shabbat this was a completely hypothetical question. then today, my husband was home from work and we began talking again and it became sort of real.

maybe I will make another thread in the israel section as the areas that I am talking about are not that relevant to people outside israel, but we both agreed that we dont make friends all that easily and my husband knows about 6 married guys in a certain town and it became a real option for us to consider moving to.