Doing X teaches your child that it's right

AlwaysGrateful

Sun, Nov 28 2010, 2:15 pm

I've seen this thought a lot on various threads here.

Don't potch your child, because that will teach him that hitting is right (if you're stronger than the other person).
Don't ignore your child, because that will teach him that giving others the silent treatment is okay.
Don't keep on repeating a request to your child to get him to do it, because you wouldn't want him doing that to you, would you?

Now, I'm not going to reopen the can of worms about hitting (although I do not hit my children). My question is, for those of you who say these things...

Would you want to teach your child that if someone doesn't listen to you, you should put that person in isolation until he listens to you? (time out)
Would you want to teach your child to say "I know you don't want to do it, but I said to do it. Please do it NOW"?
Would you want your child to say "If you don't listen to me, I'm not going to do X for you"?

And if the answer to all of these things is "no," then what disciplinary tactics are left? I want my child to learn how to disagree with someone else respectfully and to try to compromise. But my job as a mother is not to continually compromise with my children. I am a parent. They need to learn to respect authority - and I am an authority in their lives.

So do the first bunch of arguments (at the beginning of this post) actually make sense? I've heard them so often, but they seem so illogical.

shevi82

Sun, Nov 28 2010, 2:32 pm

I believe discipline is something you cannot start teaching a ten year old or even a five year old. Before a child reaches three he must realize that if Mommy says something you do it.
So if you tell your two year old :"come to mommy" and she doesn't come and you ignore it and stay sitting on the couch, She learns that she doesn't have to listen.
In such a case I would get up, hold her firmly by her hand and say:" Mommy said to come, so you come"
If young children are taught to listen from a young age there are not many discipline problems later on.

red sea

Sun, Nov 28 2010, 2:34 pm

How about "It is not okay to do this....in our family we do this instead"

Get childs full attention with eye contact, follow steps below limiting your words to the fewer the better;

Show disaproval [It is not okay] ->
explain why [recognize childs need as legit - but explain undesired effect]->

show correction [explain why this is better way and accomplishes childs same goal]->
show approval when done [this time or next].

Last edited by red sea on Sun, Nov 28 2010, 2:59 pm; edited 2 times in total

AlwaysGrateful

Sun, Nov 28 2010, 2:36 pm

My oldest is a toddler right now. ETA: He's 2 1/2 and really testing boundaries right now.

Explaining just doesn't work. It might work in addition to discipline, I don't know. But I could explain til I'm blue in the face. If I say, "It's time to clean up your toys" and he doesn't listen, what's the next step? Or if I say, as in your example, "come to Mommy" and he doesn't listen, and I go over and take his hand and he makes himself limp on the floor...then what?

amother

Sun, Nov 28 2010, 2:51 pm

About potching, I don't usually post to these threads because they really bother me.
No one likes being called abusive by some anonymous faces on the internet that haven't got a clue who or what or what circumstances.

Yes, I used to potch my older kids.
Yes, I regret it.
Yes I worked on myself to stop.
However I want you to all know something:

My older kids that I potched are from the most gentle respectful children I know. My daughter comes home with stories of chutzpa she witnessed in shock from other children and bizarre "easy" relationships between parents and kids where it's more of "friendship" where the respect is coming from the parent but not going back the other way.
I'm not saying pothching is good but I don't believe it does what so many people are claiming it does. It did not teach my kids to hit. They have siblings and their fights do not often include physical violence.

On the flip side. My younger children I do not hit. My second youngest child is the most spoilt and disrespectful of my children.
She's still a good kid but comparatively to my others she is ruder and tougher. She is also the one who was more inclined to hit the others (till she grew out of it.)
Can someone also explain to me where my toddler learnt to hit from? I don't hit him, he hasn't seen me hit my other kids and he hasn't seen his siblings hit each other so who taught him?

red sea

Sun, Nov 28 2010, 3:09 pm

Toddlers are not great at complex thoughts. Everything goes smoother if you break it down for them. The theory I think still works but in miniature.

Two - three word sentences. Less sentences.

Not "clean up your toys" but "Get lego and put it in this box" Encourage them along. Clean up is very overwhelming [flylady anyone?] breaking it down is more managable.

Very independent toddlers I think work better when given more independance. (pardon my spelling) Skip the "come here" - go right to what you want them to do. Let them do as much as possible for themselves even if its easier to do it yourself or faster, or you do a better job. Either choose to live with jobs done 70% right or once a child is all wet & soaped up they are unlikely to protest if you stick in some {oops you missed one tiny spot} help to help them finishwashing off melted chocolate.

training them for independence and ensuring less battles hence they will be obeying well and learning to stand on their own- the ultimate goals.

AlwaysGrateful

Sun, Nov 28 2010, 3:20 pm

Red Sea - That's all nice in theory. But what about when it doesn't work? When I say to my toddler, "Okay, it's time to clean up! Here, the blocks go in this box." And he gives me his mischevious grin and runs the other way to play with his toys. Or when I say "Don't bang that toy on the floor near the baby's head...Stop right now!" and he's obviously "testing." And either I physically stop him and he starts again, or I can't stop him and he hits the baby who starts crying. Explaining, "See? The baby is crying! That HURT. It's not nice to hurt" feels like talking to a brick wall. Of course it's important to do, but it doesn't feel like it's actually teaching anything. The natural consequence would seem to be to take the toy away - to which he replies, "It not nice to take things away! That was mine!"

That's actually one thing that prompted me to write the OP.

anon

Sun, Nov 28 2010, 4:55 pm

I'm someone who strongly disagrees with most of the parenting methods that you described in your first post (including time out). However, my reasons are not the same as the reasons you posted.

For example, I don't think that you shouldn't hit because it teaches hitting... or that silent treatment teaches silent treatment. We all know children who were yelled at and hit growing up who then turned into very gentle, soft-spoken adults.

I believe that all those methods are wrong...simply because they are poor parenting methods and they will NOT yield good results. What those results are exactly, we don't know. But I know that the results won't be good. For example, the gentle child who was hit and yelled at can turn into someone who is self-loathing with poor self-esteem. The child who received the silent treatment will not learn proper methods of dealing with negative feelings and may turn into someone who yells. Who knows what the exact outcome is? I sure don't. But like I said, I know it's got to be negative, because the parenting method was negative.

Let me ask you something. Do you believe that hitting, silent treatment, time out, repeating requests, etc etc are wonderful parenting methods that will help a child grow into a calm, responsible, happy, content individual who forges healthy relationships with family and peers? If your answer is yes, then I will bow out of the discussion as I clearly don't belong here.

If your answer is No, then the only relevant question that remains is "I know what NOT to do, but now I need to learn what TO DO...please help!"...or something along those lines Wink

Last edited by anon on Sun, Nov 28 2010, 5:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

red sea

Sun, Nov 28 2010, 5:16 pm

I'll tell you what I would do.

I don't preface clean up with the phrase "clean up"
just get right to lets get the blocks and throw them in here, I think sometimes at this age its fine to make a game on timing fast or who does more if you participate a bit or a special clean up song

I beleive in never ever "blaming the baby" -I think doing that breeds low level resentment and makes ones life more difficult than need be- there is nothing wrong with distracting -You are so crowded, here lets give you more room to play- help move him & the drum or the baby - oh! what great music you are playing, can you come play it here so I can listen better? If you don't make it into something to test then he wont check your reaction because it will be not in his thoughts. Inevitably age will make him aware that you don't do things near a babys head, but if you want to help him care for the baby do that a different time, give him small jobs to carefor the baby & praise him. Ultimately if all else fails I also would resort to taking away the offending toy for a set time or just the drumsticks - he can use his hands.

Verbal speaking I found has no connection to following complex directions or doing a complex calculation in your head.
If you give him a five step direction will he follow it through without getting "lost" on the way?

hth

ora_43

Sun, Nov 28 2010, 5:27 pm

I think kids are smart enough to understand circumstances.

All these things - physically restricting someone, taking their things, limiting their options, etc - are sometimes the wrong thing to do, and sometimes the right thing to do. For example, today my four-year-old saw her baby sister chewing on a marker, and she took it away. It was a good thing, I'm glad I didn't teach her that it's not OK to take other people's stuff at all, ever.

Another example - if my kids were to forbid me to drink coffee I'd be upset, but I consider it my responsibility to prevent them from drinking coffee.

When my oldest used to tell me "it's not nice to... (take a toy/ tell someone "no"/ give a time out/ etc)," I would tell her, "I'm the ima, and part of the ima's job is to teach the kids how to behave. That means sometimes I have to (whatever). When you are ready to behave nicely, I will (give your toy back/ let you out of time out/etc)." It worked for her, not that she was happy about it but she understands.

ora_43

Sun, Nov 28 2010, 5:33 pm

What I would do in those specific situations-
- Clean up - I wouldn't let the kids take out a new toy or do a new activity until the old one is cleaned up.

- An older child doing something that could hurt the baby would get one warning, then I would physically move them.

- A child who actually hurt another child, after a warning, would get a time out. And they have to apologize, even if the other child is a baby too young to understand the apology (if they don't apologize, they go back into time out).

That's just what works for us.

I'm not into repeating requests because I think it teaches kids not to listen the first time. I'll repeat things one or two times if the kids were genuinely distracted/forgot, but if they're ignoring me on purpose, the second "reminder" includes a possible consequence (eg. "if you don't clean up now, we won't have time to go to the playground before it gets dark," or "if those books don't get off the floor right away, I'll have to take them back to the library where they know how to take good care of books.")