Leash-Tzaar Baalei Chaim

sequoia

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 7:28 pm

anon, I agree with you about all those issues (fur industry, circus, etc), but this is a forum of pet owners/animal lovers! And you and I know that a leash does not cause suffering to dogs. They are domesticated animals. Please don't conflate the issues, this is not what this forum is for.

I've seen chained, muzzled bears on the streets of St. Petersburg. Now THAT is tzaar baalei chaim! Dogs -- not so much. They found humans. They cannot live without humans. They are bred for millenia to guard and protect humans. And as all the dog owners on this thread have attested, they are happiest when the human is in clear control and is the leader of the pack.

There are places on imamother to talk about animal cruelty, but this is not one of them.

Mommy3.5

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 7:47 pm

They can live without humans. There is a stray in my neighborhood that does just that. I think it is awful that people buy/adopt pets and then put them out when they see they cannot handle them. Unfortunately that does happen a lot.

That's how my mom got her cat, and how my brother ended up with a $2000 purebred dog.

I happen to agree, the dog is not offended by the leash, and, the leash is for the safety of the dog as much as it is for the safety of other people.

anon

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 7:48 pm

Lol, Ok sequoia.

But as a dog owner, I do agree that in many instances, owning a pet dog is cruel. For me, the issue is not so much the leash, but whether or not the dog is getting the amount and TYPE (I.e., space to run around) of exercise that it needs. Some dogs DO need more than just a walk on a leash. A long time ago we had a neighbor who had this huge dog with an enormous amount of energy. It often ran around in their small backyard (I don't know how often it went for a walk, I never asked). But it was clear that this dog was going crazy, it was NOT a city dog! To be fair though, this dog probably came from a shelter, and would have otherwise led an even worse life.

But this topic really goes beyond leashes. As others mentioned, it involves cages (for other types of animals), and it involves human contact (some dogs are left home alone all day and not all breeds can handle that). As well, there is a lot of cruelty involved in puppy mills, so I would never buy a dog from a regular pet store.

This is coming from someone who has had fish, rabbit, cat (with many litters of kittens) and a dog.

Don't you know that on Imamother, every topic is capable of turning into a debate LOL

louche

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 7:52 pm

Merrymom wrote:

. If people really loved animals they wouldn't keep them cooped up constantly so that they could have them for their own personal enjoyment. The same thing applies to visiting zoos. You can't say "I love animals, let's go to the zoo". If you really love animals you wouldn't go to the zoo and thereby further encourage them to basically mistreat the animals.

Actually, many zoos house formerly distressed or orphaned animals that have been rescued from the wild and nursed back to health, or that have been raised in captivity and abandoned. These would never make it on their own in the wild. Sometimes the animals are taught how to survive in the wild and then released. Zoos also help preserve endangered species and repopulate their habitats.

As for pets, yes, there is a horrendous industry pandering to people's love of exotica, trafficking in creatures from the wild, subjecting them to the worst conditions imaginable (smuggled in suitcases, e.g.) just so some gangster can have a pet ocelot or macaw. Otoh, many people adopt only shelter animals that would otherwise be destroyed.

Mirabelle

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 8:13 pm

louche wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

FTR, we only adopt shelter dogs.
My dog was pretty much ready to be euthanized (she had been in the shelter for 3 months) before we adopted her. No one else wanted her because she is big, but she's really just a big baby!

Chocoholic

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 8:29 pm

I think we need to finish this topic because this new forum is about rearing, raising and caring for pets (like for out chidren, husbands, etc) and no ethical discussions about the Extreme Torture our dogs suffer from being on a leash.. especially not for people that don't have and don't seem to understand dogs.

gp2.0

Tue, Dec 21 2010, 11:28 pm

anon wrote:

Merrymom, I agree with you. Well, not necessarily about the leash part, but about making sure that your home and exercise options match the dog's needs. That's why choosing the right breed is very important, as they each need different amounts and types of exercise.

Louche, if you knew some of the issues that PETA fought for, you'd realize that they aren't all crazy. Some are extremely legitimate and I'm glad to know that at least some people out there are strongly fighting for animal rights (the right not to be tortured, for one thing).

I am unimpressed when Jews start quoting the torah as far as animals are concerned, because in this day and age, people are HORRIBLE to animals..and sometimes it's for NO GOOD PURPOSE. I think G-d is DISGUSTED with the way animals are treated, hierarchy considered. Two obvious examples are the fur industry and the circus. A more controversial topic (since there is more of a purpose) is the way animals are manufactured for food. It's all torture, it's all tzaar baalei chayim, it's all people ABUSING their position on top of the food chain.

gp2.0

Tue, Dec 21 2010, 11:38 pm

Whoops, sorry. OK, I'll stop with the debate now. It's just an issue I feel strongly about, especially after finding out that many zoos and aquariums PURCHASE animals that are FORCIBLY CAPTURED from the wild, separated from their families, traumatized and hurt. Then they sell the shtick that they are 'caring' for 'hurt' animals. I wonder where I can take this debate? Maybe I'll start a new thread somewhere. Sorry for going OT!

Now for the leash thing: Honestly, IME with dogs, they are very good at communicating and making their wishes known. If they don't want to do something, they try very hard to get out of it. Their willingness to be leashed before going outdoors proves that they don't mind being leashed in the grand scheme of things.

For example, I like traveling to places. I hate car rides and plane rides, but it's something I'll bear because I understand that it's just the means to an end. Dogs usually love being outdoors, so wearing a leash is something they just shrug off.

anon

Tue, Dec 21 2010, 11:43 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

I already started two threads, one on the circus and the other on the fur industry. The zoo is another interesting topic, as would be the meat industry. I'd love for someone else to start a thread, I can't keep repeating myself, lol. The more these issues are publicized, the better.

I would put it in the controversial section