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Do you feel the US public schools fail their students?

[ 1 ]

Yes- Teachers Unions are to blame

17%

[ 4 ]

Yes- Lack of funding is to blame

[ 0 ]

Yes- Lack of parental involvement is to blame

[ 0 ]

Combination

26%

[ 6 ]

It's complicated

52%

[ 12 ]

Total Votes : 23

cuties' mom

Thu, Jan 27 2011, 4:45 pm

I voted that its complicated. I used to teach in public school and now am a SEIT in public school, so I know what's going on, at least in NY. To quickly run through all the options:
1. Teachers unions are to blame- I think not because the first 3 years, its very easy to get fired. All teachers are rated every year so if a teacher is unsatisfactory, she won't get fired, but will lose her classroom.
2. lack of funding- there's definitely some budget issues resulting in overcrowding classrooms. However, I don't know if its lack of funding or mismanagement of funding.
3. lack of parental involvement- there's definitely a connection between parent involvement and school acheivement. Lots of parents are uninvolved and that is a big problem. Every school has a parent coordinator who is supposed to get parents involved. Some schools are more successful; others are less successful. Some principals don't want parents involved because they view them as a distraction. Kids who live in domestic violence shelters or homeless shelters are less likely to have parental involvement as the parents have more pressing concerns than their children's education. These children are more likely to be at least a year behind academically because of frequent change of schools and lack of stability at home. Some schools arrange workshops for parents. The problem is that many parents don't have the time to come. Some principals have coffee and cookies with parents twice a month in order to get parents into the school building. Some schools have a monthly toddler time so that SAHMs with younger kids will have a reason to come in. While parent involvement is slightly rising, it hasn't made a huge difference yet.
4. Paying based on performance won't help because in a class where most of the kids leave in December after finding permanent housing not near the school, and new kids take their place in January after moving into the newly vacated rooms in the local shelters, its not fair to hold the teacher to the same standards as a class of kids from "privleged" homes. When most of the kids in a class come in not knowing a word of English, is it the teacher's fault if they're not meeting national standards?

I think that the main problem is that because of the focus on test scores, developmentally appropriate practices are not taking place. I could write a whole book on what's going on in public schools that are not developmentally appropriate, but I doubt anyone is really interested. Its also a huge problem in NYC that the people in charge of education have no educational training or experience and are trying to run schools like businesses.

emama

Thu, Jan 27 2011, 4:57 pm

Marina,

Quote:

Look. I can't. I can't write [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] every time I write a post. It would just cramp my style, see. So you are just going to have to get know me better.

Phew. that's a relief!

marina

Thu, Jan 27 2011, 5:02 pm

chavamom wrote:

OK, I'll give another example of where I'm coming from. My mother taught in a district that for....um, probably forever....was very homogeneous (majority white, middle class, certain amount of rural students bused in b/c their small towns purchased service rather than open their own small school). Probably 20 years ago a program started where they relocated homeless families from "the city" to an area covered by this district. This district to this day has all the "right" things in place. My mom taught class within a class with 2 special ed. teachers in the room and small class size. She taught the English class where they got 2 hours of Freshman English instead of 1 a day. The kids love her, she makes it interesting, but a lot of these kids come in with a 1st, 2nd, 3rd grade reading level. There is only so much you can do with that when the expectation is to teach them Romeo and Juliet, Great Expectations and 9th grade English grammar (no child left behind!)....and they are going to leave, go home, get no further help and leave their homework in their lockers. Not to mention that a lot of these kids probably had less than ideal environments in utero, might have lived in lead filled homes....I don't think this is a teaching union keep poor teachers in place issue.

This is where I am coming from : http://www.citizensacademy.org/
Literally, that is where I worked as a special ed director and school psychologist most recently.

*100% minority, chosen by lottery from the inner city Cleveland population
*80% free and reduced lunch
*20% special ed.
*100% of 3rd graders are proficient in reading and 98% percent of 4th graders are. This number is higher than any affluent white district that I am aware of. Compare with the Cleveland public schools which do well if half the kids are proficient.

What is the difference between Cleveland Municipal and this school, which is located, plunk in the middle of Cleveland Municipal? The main difference, from what I saw, is that we had no unions. We could hire and fire at will and we could make our day longer and our year longer and we could ask the teachers to come in on Saturdays and stay afterschool to help with tutoring and we didn't have to go through a whole union negotiation to do that. We could research and implement a new reading program in the classroom and we didn't have to jump through legal hoops to do it. We could hire and retain the most creative and dedicated people who believed in the mission and if our hires didn't work out, they were asked to leave, even mid year.

As for parent involvement... it is also part of the school's job. Each Citizens' Academy child (not each family, not each new child, just each child) receives a home visit in the beginning of the year by a teacher or administrator. They get a new backpack with school supplies and a list of homework tips. Whenever we had parent meetings, babysitting and dinner for the kids are provided. I remember coming to people's houses to get crack mommas to sign IEPs so their kid could get reading help.

Last edited by marina on Thu, Jan 27 2011, 5:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

yummymummy

Thu, Jan 27 2011, 5:07 pm

cuties' mom wrote:

1. Teachers unions are to blame- I think not because the first 3 years, its very easy to get fired. All teachers are rated every year so if a teacher is unsatisfactory, she won't get fired, but will lose her classroom.

3 years! You find me another job where you do a decent job for three years and you are in for life.

cuties' mom wrote:

4. Paying based on performance won't help because in a class where most of the kids leave in December after finding permanent housing not near the school, and new kids take their place in January after moving into the newly vacated rooms in the local shelters, its not fair to hold the teacher to the same standards as a class of kids from "privleged" homes. When most of the kids in a class come in not knowing a word of English, is it the teacher's fault if they're not meeting national standards?

Obviuosly, the metrics for merit pay would need to be a little more sophisticated than "your students get A's and you get a raise".

Depressed

Thu, Jan 27 2011, 5:12 pm

marina wrote:

Quote:

Extra hours, tutoring and remediation for those with IEP's?

Not so much in the large districts with huge unions. More so with the smaller wealthier ones with better attorneys. Best of all are often charters. Sorry for being snarky, long day.

No need to apologize Marina. Your just telling it like it is..

yummymummy

Thu, Jan 27 2011, 5:12 pm

marina wrote:

What about the psychological boost that comes along with getting into an "elite" school? For many parents, when their child gets into one of these selective schools they suddenly think the child has a real chance for success now so they make sure the child doesn't waste it. The same goes for the kids. That accounts for a portion of the success these lottery schools see.

Last edited by yummymummy on Thu, Jan 27 2011, 5:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

marina

Thu, Jan 27 2011, 5:15 pm

Quote:

When most of the kids in a class come in not knowing a word of English, is it the teacher's fault if they're not meeting national standards?

Federal guidelines allow for different standards for ELLs for the first two years.

saw50st8

Thu, Jan 27 2011, 5:30 pm

Where I work, ists 6 months of good behavior and in for life (for the union employees).

I think this women was doing something illegal even if she had good intentions. Why didn't she move to the district if she wanted to send her kids to those schools?

cuties' mom

Thu, Jan 27 2011, 5:31 pm

marina wrote:

Quote:

When most of the kids in a class come in not knowing a word of English, is it the teacher's fault if they're not meeting national standards?

Federal guidelines allow for different standards for ELLs for the first two years.

In NYC, ELLs still take state and city tests. They just get extra time and have someone read the test to them.

imeinu

Thu, Jan 27 2011, 6:35 pm

Marina, ever thought you'd see the day I fully agreed with you? LOL

WriterMom

Thu, Jan 27 2011, 6:42 pm

Marina, my only thought about your theory of why your school produced such great results from what would otherwise be considered write-off students is, I would bet the type of person who wants to teach at such a school is not the average teacher. Not that this invalidates what you're saying, but I would expect that the teachers who apply to teach there are more motivated by a desire to teach and help transform lives, and less motivated by a union armed with nuclear weapons and great benefits. That's got to make a difference too.

nylon

Thu, Jan 27 2011, 7:00 pm

I think the teachers union excuse (and The Economist constantly does it, and it drives me up a wall) is a lazy excuse. Parts of the South don't have unions. Their schools are not better and they don't fire teachers either.

Intake has a lot to do with it. I know where I am from, achievement and spending are not that well correlated. Achievement and parental involvement/background/income sure are, though.

chavamom

Thu, Jan 27 2011, 7:09 pm

marina wrote:

What is the difference between Cleveland Municipal and this school, which is located, plunk in the middle of Cleveland Municipal? The main difference, from what I saw, is that we had no unions. We could hire and fire at will and we could make our day longer and our year longer and we could ask the teachers to come in on Saturdays and stay afterschool to help with tutoring and we didn't have to go through a whole union negotiation to do that. We could research and implement a new reading program in the classroom and we didn't have to jump through legal hoops to do it. We could hire and retain the most creative and dedicated people who believed in the mission and if our hires didn't work out, they were asked to leave, even mid year.

As for parent involvement... it is also part of the school's job. Each Citizens' Academy child (not each family, not each new child, just each child) receives a home visit in the beginning of the year by a teacher or administrator. They get a new backpack with school supplies and a list of homework tips. Whenever we had parent meetings, babysitting and dinner for the kids are provided. I remember coming to people's houses to get crack mommas to sign IEPs so their kid could get reading help.

Their parents cared enough to put them in that lottery. Let's start there and we'll go viter....

Quote:

Home Visits
Teachers visit each student and family at home in the days before school begins. These visits help develop relationships and set mutual expectations early.

MAPs - My Achievement Plans
Every student receives an individualized academic plan detailing strategies for success. Plans are updated with input from parents throughout the school year.

Extended Day
Citizens’ Academy’s school day is from 8:00 am to 3:50 pm. This extended day (196 instructional hours above the state standard) allows for two hours of daily literacy instruction and two hours of daily math instruction.

SMART Program
A six week after school and Saturday academic program that give students additional instruction in reading and math by classroom teachers.

Before and After School Program
The Before & After School Enrichment Program provides enriched activities that promote our students’ emotional, physical, and cognitive development. Programming is offered before school (6:30 am - 8:00 am) and after school (4:00 pm - 6:00 pm). Activities include: Chess Club, Science Club, Spelling Bee, Citizens Academy Talent Showcase, Tai Chi, Intramural sports, and African Drumming and Dance.

marina

Thu, Jan 27 2011, 7:14 pm

yes, the parent does have to apply, so it is a self selecting group to that extent, but I really don't think that this in and of itself accounts for the difference.

Yes, writermom, I think the teachers are also self selecting. Applying to work at a place without a union automatically means less job security and you have to be okay with that.

I can accept the idea that teacher's unions are not the only thing wrong with the school system. But I do not accept the position that there are just some populations, that nebach, will never amount to much because of their SES or their race or their doped up parents. There are very few obstacles that cannot be overcome by a dedicated staff of educators and a marginally present parent. Sure, there are some obstacles. Severe cognitive delay is one example. Another example is a parent who is too drunk to ever bring her kid to school. But these are the outliers, even in a poor urban district.

Last edited by marina on Thu, Jan 27 2011, 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

nicole81

Thu, Jan 27 2011, 7:16 pm

WriterMom wrote:

it addition, schools that have lotteries are somewhat self-selecting. by virtue of requiring students to fill out an application for the lottery, the child and/or parent is involved in the educational process and determined to find an alternative to their local public school.

I teach in an urban school that is also 100% minority students, 92% free lunch eligible, and 26% special ed. at least a third of our students are placed in our high school by a central office because they had nowhere to go. either they never even filled out the high school choice application (required of ALL NYC middle school students just to be placed in any high school,) or they just landed on a flight into the country the day before. most of the students in my school never even had the opportunity to enter a charter school lottery because they were too uninvolved in the educational process to know they existed, or their parents didn't care enough to sign the papers.

I would love to see what would happen in many of the charter schools if students were just placed there by central when they had nowhere else to go.

Atali

Thu, Jan 27 2011, 7:26 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

I think this women was doing something illegal even if she had good intentions. Why didn't she move to the district if she wanted to send her kids to those schools?

I agree completely. If parents who do this do not get punished, there will be no deterrent to stop people from doing this and there is no reason that the taxpayers in the other district should need to pay for her child.

chavamom

Thu, Jan 27 2011, 7:28 pm

That's what I meant by the "parents who cared enough to put their kids in the lottery". I'm reminded of this documentary about charter schools where kids were literally praying to get in so they would have a chance to go to college. These are kids and parents who care.

marina

Thu, Jan 27 2011, 7:32 pm

frankly, most of those kids will do well regardless of what school they are placed in. I read some statistical analysis done on that.

If the parent cares enough, the kid will be fine. If the parent doesn't care, yes, it is the job of the school to care. And unions sometimes hinder more than they help.

WriterMom

Thu, Jan 27 2011, 7:39 pm

marina wrote:

I can accept the idea that teacher's unions are not the only thing wrong with the school system. But I do not accept the position that there are just some populations, that nebach, will never amount to much because of their SES or their race or their doped up parents.

Absolutely agreed.

Obviously we have a collective obligation to help these children, here and now. But in the longer term the only sustainable thing is to prevent the crises of SES and other factors (which I do not believe include race, but do include doped up or abusive or otherwise wretched parents) in the first place. A family doctor at shul was telling me about a conversation with a trauma surgeon, who thinks preventative healthcare is largely a waste of money, because he see horrific car accident cases where outcomes depend on having enough highly trained staff on hand immediately, and have nothing to do with obesity, public health, etc.

The devil in the details is how to balance finite (very) resources both to meet the needs of the crisis cases, and to prevent there from being crises in the future, because it's immoral not to do the first, and insane not to do the second, even if prevention seems like a distant concern for people dealing with the fall-out of crises today.

/ramble

chavamom

Thu, Jan 27 2011, 8:34 pm

Oh, nevermind. I erased my whole post. But Marina, you are the only one bringing race into it. We have a county to our South, dirt poor and the meth capital of the world, has all the same problems and it is lily white. My only point with my endless examples is that it is a huge, uphill battle for many of these kids.

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