Would You Spy? | Imamother

amother

Mon, Jan 24 2011, 10:32 am

Would you spy on your teenager if you were worried about a friendship? I would like to put a recording device on the telephone to see what my daughter is talking about with a friend of hers. This girl has made me nervous and worried from the start but I thought the friendship wouldn't go anywhere but it's become instead very close and imho unhealthy. This girl is older than mine by a year and a half, I've been told that she has cursed/curses, she's in a school for drop-outs, comes from a very large family where there is no supervision, etc. At this point if I told my daughter without any evidence not to see this girl I'd become the hated enemy as this girl basically has made my daughter look at adults with suspicion and a "us against them" mentality. My daughter has gone from being careful with davening, proud of her yidishkeit, always adding to divrei Torah, to obsessed with her ipod, wearing the least tznius clothing/jewelry that she can get away with, bored with school etc. When the Rabbi in her school asked her what her favorite subject was she was silent for a long time until she finally said math (one of her weakest subjects). Warning bells are going off in my head and after speaking with her she admits that she has alot of questions that she's been too embarassed to ask about being Jewish, if it's all true. This can't be coming out of nowhere, can it?

Chalupta

Mon, Jan 24 2011, 1:29 pm

Oy teenagers shmeenagers! It's insane! My daughter is IY"H turning 14 soon, and it's just the two of us in the house (I am a single mom; dad is a deadbeat). This is so intensely complicated. In many ways my kid sounds like this girl you describe: she has ADHD, ODD, has been kicked out of her frum school after she has been there since kindergarten; I had no choice but to put her into public school for a time while getting her evaluated by learning and psychology professionals for diagnoses and while working the state school system to get her an IEP so that we can get funding to have her placed in what they call a "non-private public school" with non jewish kids where they at least know how to deal with her. I stand here now watching my daughter's yiddishkeit disintegrate before my eyes as well, and it kills me. Just kills me. I see many of the girls from her frum school wanting to spend time with her, but her parents being too reluctant to allow it. And yet, when I am most honest with myself about it, I really can't blame them. Indeed my kid is now being exposed to all sorts of non jewish things - she has a lead signing part in a production her school is organizing in honor of Black History Month (oy vey).

AND YET... despite all that, my kid is a great kid... she is in therapy... she's learned a tremendous lot from the consequences of her behavior and has never known more of what is right from wrong. Many times we learn from adversity, and it is this adversity that shapes us, molds us, teaches us and makes us who we are.

This girl you are worried about may indeed be a bad influence. And yet you must realize that nothing is sweeter than forbidden fruit: if you simply forbid your daughter from being friends with this girl, they will find their ways... they will sneak their friendship... they will not necessarily adhere to your will. You should also allow for the fact that Teenageritis is a mental disorder (I say this jokingly) when they test their boundaries; want to try everything, see everything, find themselves, color their hair purple, try different looks, take on different personas and explore themselves while separating from you. This is absolutely normal. If a teenager is still clinging to her mother's skirt, there is absolutely something wrong!!! And if we push them too hard, they will run and hide but not stop taking on the beginning of their independent journey.

I have long believed that if I can't stop something, then at least I should bring it home to watch over. Might I suggest - since the chances of your daughter actually doing what you want and staying away from her are small - that you invite this girl over, let her come feel comfortable in your home,. Let her come to you... let them be under your roof. And without making it obvious, become a support to this girl who seems to have issues at home... Maybe she needs a mentor, a friend, and is left in the dark and that is why she herself is acting out.

My daughter had such a friend who had very very bad family situation and was acting out. They were inseparable no matter what I tried. So I brought her in just this same way and saw what a terrific, mature, and wonderful girl she really is underneath all the confusion and chaos caused by her insanely divorced parents... today she calls me her second mom, shares with me and even helps me talk sense to my own kid sometimes. In the end they are all just kids. They aren't inherently bad unless we push them. It is the age of testing boundaries and the beginning of their needing to separate from us to become their own selves. Read a few books on raising teenagers. One terrific book is "How to Talk So Teens Will Listen & Listen So Teens Will Talk" by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish. Don't close your eyes and just forbid your daughter from seeing this girl. It may backfire. Arm yourself with parenting knowledge.

B'hatzlacha. Wink

amother

Mon, Jan 24 2011, 3:46 pm

two things
#1 you say school for drop-outs... if she's a dropout she wouldn't be in school so I'm confused.

#2 when I was a teen my mother had her "spies" who found out I was watching R rated movies with a friend (they weren't dirty, just bad language or violence) so my mother broke up our friendship... years later she severely regretted it when I was hanging out with boys and watching really bad stuff and this "bad influence" turned out to be a sweet, kind, loving, frum bas yisroel bais yaakov type who became a morah.

The question is whether you trust your daughter or not. Also like in a good marriage, communication is key with parent-child relationships, talk to your daughter, let her know what is worrying you about her recent changes in behavior. How I wish my mother had talked to me, instead she tried to force me to wear knee socks even under a long skirt while all I wanted was short socks with a long skirt (no skin showing) Instead I now wear no socks and sandals with short skirts...

Its almost an instinct of a teenager to push the limits and test their parents and its very common for them to lash out and do things just out of spite. If she finds out you are spying she may lose all her trust in you and do things she knows are wrong just to punish you!

As it happens, I am a frum (albiet more modern) woman and I keep halacha and my mother is very proud of how I turned out, but I am not like my family (ultra-yeshivish) but many of my friends from my teenage years are not married and OTD still now all these years later!

grace413

Mon, Jan 24 2011, 3:59 pm

I understand and sympathize with your desire to know what your DD and her friend are talking about. However, if she finds out you are spying that will destroy any trust she has in you and will therefore be counterproductive.

miki007

Mon, Jan 24 2011, 5:32 pm

<<Warning bells are going off in my head and after speaking with her she admits that she has alot of questions that she's been too embarassed to ask about being Jewish, if it's all true. This can't be coming out of nowhere, can it?>>

Questions don't come out of nowhere, they come from healthy thinking minds.
Encourage her to ask, take her seriously and don't brush off her questions. If you don't know the answer, research it, but show her it's ok not to understand everything.
Talk to her and let her know your concerns but don't spy on her!
Good luck!

Kayza

Mon, Jan 24 2011, 8:22 pm

amother wrote:

This can't be coming out of nowhere, can it?

Yes and no. The questions probably predate both the friendship and the other issues. The friendship is probably only supporting her in doing what many girls would like to do but are afraid to.

Stopping this friendship is unlikely to help you. And, spying is likely to destroy your relationship with your daughter for no gain, since you are not going to be able to make a real impact anyway.

What you DO need to do is to is to show her some respect. She opened herself up enough to admit to you that she has serious questions. Don't punish her for that - and includes trying to force her to end the friendship. All you will accomplish is to intensify her questions and insure that she will never tell anything again - possibly even if her life depended on it. I'm not exaggerating here. Instead either try to answer her questions, get her appropriate materials that discuss the issues she has, or put her in touch with an "inreach" professional who can have some, hopefully productive, discussions with her. Project Chazon (http://www.projectchazon.com/) and AJOP (http://www.ajop.com/) might be good places to start.

amother

Mon, Jan 24 2011, 9:18 pm

OP here. So my daughter came home with an angry looking face and immediately started yelling at her sisters. Part of the story that I left out is that she went from being a sweet loving older sister to a moody mean one. I just felt like I needed to talk to her so I privately went to her room and asked her how school was. It turns out that she's pretty miserable. She's trying so hard to find her place and is stuck because she has changed and doesn't have a close friend anymore so this wilder girl and her at least feel very close to one another. She feels very lonely in school and until now I haven't noticed and she couldn't admit it so she's been feeling very hurt and depressed almost. I don't think at this point that her religious questions are serious, they're more a reflection of her general unhappiness. So we spoke at least, that's a step in the right direction. Thank you all so much for your responses, they were very helpful to me.

life'sgreat

Mon, Jan 24 2011, 10:37 pm

Do you know if that girl is emotionally balanced and safe for her? She might be unhappy with that girl, but still feel stuck with her for many reasons.

amother

Tue, Jan 25 2011, 11:54 am

life'sgreat wrote:

Do you know if that girl is emotionally balanced and safe for her? She might be unhappy with that girl, but still feel stuck with her for many reasons.

The girls seems deep-down really sweet, just acting out. She comes from a very frum family but they don't keep a close eye on their children at all. I just don't know how much of my daughter's behavior is typical teenage testing the waters or if any of it is from being badly influenced, perhaps by this girl. That's why I'm thinking of recording them, not on a regular basis but perhaps just once or twice to get a feel for what this girl is really like.

life'sgreat

Tue, Jan 25 2011, 3:49 pm

If you were my mother and I was a teen, I'd lose trust in you completely idylls do that. And she WILL find out.

ora_43

Tue, Jan 25 2011, 4:35 pm

Your dd sounds like a typical teenager.

Couldn't you get a sense of how she and her friend relate by letting your dd and her friend hang out at your house, or offering to take the two of them somewhere? You won't know what they talk about (at least not the stuff that's not for adult ears), but you could chat a bit with Friend and get to know her a little, and hopefully get a sense for how she and your dd interact. It sounds like Friend could use a bit of friendly adult interest in any case.

life'sgreat

Tue, Jan 25 2011, 4:41 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Great idea!

Kayza

Tue, Jan 25 2011, 10:37 pm

amother wrote:

I just don't know how much of my daughter's behavior is typical teenage testing the waters or if any of it is from being badly influenced, perhaps by this girl. That's why I'm thinking of recording them, not on a regular basis but perhaps just once or twice to get a feel for what this girl is really like.

Please do NOT do this - you won't find out anything useful, no matter what their conversations "reveal", but you WILL comprehensively destroy your relationship with your daughter.

Raizle

Tue, Feb 22 2011, 5:57 pm

before you go behind her back and do anything drastic I'd suggest you sit down and have a real heart to heart with her.
Be there for her, spend time with her and talk to her.
Get to know her better and encourage her to ask you all the questions she has.
If you don't know the answer then you can admit that you don't know but you will find out and get back to her.
I believe it's important for our kids that we parents and teachers admit if we don't know something rather then trying to fudge an answer. They see through those kind of answers and are smarter then what we think. It's always better to say "I don't know" and that you will look into it and then DO look into it and find a satisfactory answer for her.
Don't be angry at her questions, be compassionate and understanding and LISTEN to what she says and asks