Can someone answer this?

amother

Sun, May 22 2011, 9:26 pm

My 15 year old daughter just attended a class sleepover. The girls were sleeping in the basement dressed in their pajamas but then they wanted to go upstairs to the kitchen to get food. My dd was wearing a sweatshirt and pj pants so she pulled on a knee (below) length skirt over her pants and was wearing socks. she went up stairs and the girls whose house the party was in told her that her brothers would be coming in soon so she should go back down stairs. She said "why, I'm tznius?" and the vast majority of her class said she wasn't.... She attends a VERY yeshivish Bais Yaakov, we are Chabad but Tznius is not an issue in our home B"H, my dd is VERY tznius but enjoys being trendy and is constantly being told by her class she is too trendy (doesn't only wear black etc..) the girls couldn't tell her why she wasn't Tznius but they said "you just aren't"...She asked me and I didn't have and answer for her, I said that it may have been that it was more b/c of the appearance of wearing pants even though her legs til below the knee were covered by a skirt... but idk...can anyone give me a reason???

Raizle

Sun, May 22 2011, 9:38 pm

I'm not giving my own opinion but most likely the reason is because she is wearing pants. Even under the skirt it's still beged ish.
I had a run in with someone when I was in seminary because I wear pyjama pants and she gave it to me over my head how untznius it was even under my covers.

Another reason might be because she is wearing her night clothes that she wouldn't go out in the street with in front of the male members of the family and I can understand the discomfort. The boys will notice the pjs under her skirt, you can't not notice it.

was she wrong or right? I don't know but considering it was the girls house then she has to abide by their standards.

amother

Sun, May 22 2011, 9:45 pm

OP here, ALL the girls were wearing pajama pants, just most of them pulled on a long "Junee" skirt over their pants....so only the very edge of their pants were showing....she was the only one wearing a shorter skirt over her pants...

Raizle

Sun, May 22 2011, 9:49 pm

Is the shorter skirt accepted by them in general?

I think when you have pj's under a short skirt, even over the knees it might still give an impression of pants being worn because they are all the more visable.
technicaly speaking she is just as covered as if she were wearing tights so again, it boils down to beged ish in public.

amother

Sun, May 22 2011, 10:13 pm

OP again, I figured it is basically b/c the pants were more visible by her than the other girls. Yes, these girls all wear the type of skirt she had on, she is always careful to not be too different, she just never thought that it would have been a problem or she would have brought a longer skirt, she doesn't like to "make waves"....btw....the sleep over was at the home of the schools Menahel, but I agree really there shouldn't be a girls party in a home where there are boys... but I guess he was confident he could keep an eye on things Smile

Raizle

Mon, May 23 2011, 2:23 am

without a doubt there should not have been teenage boys in the house.
Either they should have done it elsewhere or sent the boys to sleep over somewhere else (not so nice though to kick them out of their own house.)

I don't care if the menahel thinks he can keep an eye on things, and I'm rather shocked that the menahel of all people had this going on in his own home

Simple1

Mon, May 23 2011, 6:42 am

kalsee wrote:

I don't think the menahel should be around a girl's pjs party either.

I do agree that it's not typical for a sleepover to be in his house - unless the girls are his daughter's friends. You can't limit sleepovers to houses without fathers in them - unless you mean that the menahel should not be hanging around in the part of the house where the girls will be. It does help to have a big house.

Peanut2

Mon, May 23 2011, 7:14 am

I'm MO, wear pants (which are specifically made for women), and in seminary wearing pjs with a skirt on top was the height of fashion.

And I can still see why showing your sleeping attire could be seen as not tznius. After all, these are private garments. I think it's a very straight-forward feeling of tzniut, that's common even outside Judaism.
Totally different, but still an example, now that it's getting hotter there are all these people in the big wide world wearing little bathing suits out in public. Yet wearing actual undergarments - even if they would cover more! - would be totally inappropriate.

Again, I'm in no way comparing it to pjs with a skirt, just saying that I can see where it might be coming from.

It also sounds like your dd was in a tough position. It's so frustrating to be told you're not being tznius, and then to be told that they don't know why!

zaq

Mon, May 23 2011, 11:16 am

I haven't been a teenager in longer than I care to admit and so my POV is admittedly that of a prissy middle-aged lady, but it's not just a matter of how much skin is showing and where. It's also an overall perception. If girls are wearing something that's accepted as sleepwear, the impression is a rather intimate one, even if they're wearing their sleep burkas. It's the same issue I personally have with women wearing housecoats or Shabbos robes outside the house. These clothes may reveal even less skin that streetwear, but since the impression is of bedroom wear, there's a certain air about them that is less than tzanua. Tzniut is not only about how much skin shows, otherwise we could all go shopping in flannel granny gowns and bathrobes.

Curious question: were the girls wearing bras under their sweatshirts? Not wearing one is also a tzniut issue.

chocolate chips

Mon, May 23 2011, 12:25 pm

There is nothing not tznius about wearing a skirt over trousers where trousers are showing...its like wearing tights under a short skirt!

I second the opinion tht with a girls pj party the boys should have been kicked out for the night.

Barbara

Mon, May 23 2011, 12:39 pm

zaq wrote:

I think you hit the nail on the head. If the sleepwear is visible, it leads one to think of, well, sleepwear. And bed.

With a shorter skirt, the impression is *I'm in my pajamas, ready for bed, and just threw a skirt over them* The pjs would be less visible under a longer skirt, so less problematic.

I'm no teen, and I do wear pants. But I wouldn't let anyone but family see my with just a skirt thrown over pj pants. Its too intimate.