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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Teenagers and Older children

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amother

Fri, Jul 08 2011, 2:34 am

We are a dati-leumi family both from non-religious backgrounds. We were very much frumer a few years ago when we were trying to find our way but have settled at a level that we are happy with. We have 3 kids and only our oldest is following the derech that we'd hoped for with our kids.

so here's the issues...

Son, aged 15, refuses to wear kippah, refuses to put on tefillin, refuses to get out of bed on Shabbat morning for shul. We hope that when he goes out he keeps kosher but we have no idea as he has a mixed bunch of friends. He's being totally put off by his elder brother who is very intolerant of his behaviour. He hates when our elder son gives divrei torah at the Shabbat table and says that before, when we were a "normal" family he was happy to wear his kippah and be religious.

Daughter, aged 16, refuses to conform to dress code in school and even less so out of school. Never ever goes to shul but when she bentches she seems to do so with kavana. We're told she davens in school but they have issues with her dress.

There is such a bad atmosphere in our home on Shabbat that I sometimes wonder why we bother. But we do bother and we want to continue bothering so what do we do??

Isramom8

Fri, Jul 08 2011, 2:48 am

I don't know what you should do exactly, but know that it's normal for teens to resent their parents becoming frum once they are not little kids anymore. They didn't seek out these changes.

amother

Fri, Jul 08 2011, 2:54 am

OP here -

We became frum before our kids were born so they haven't had to change at all. They were all educated in religious ganim and religious junior schools. The only difference has been with their high school eduction -

eldest son went to BA high school and now hesder
2nd son is in a mixed school because of certain requirements he has
daughter was in ulpana and hated it and now in religious high school

Isramom8

Fri, Jul 08 2011, 5:57 am

Sounds like peer influence from school. What can you do? You say they need to be in these schools. Just model a good example, and discuss hashkafa respectfully so that they are aware of your opinion but still feel accepted. (Easier said than done!)

Any way they can meet with role models of their own ages? Youth groups, cousins...

shalhevet

Fri, Jul 08 2011, 6:40 am

The type of schools they are in have a very mixed bag of pupils - many may even be from non-religious homes. Add to that exposure to internet, secular movies and internet etc. and you often have far more powerful influences than the home.

I don't think there is much you can do right now except show a good role model, love your children, and daven hard. If you criticize/push it will probably have more negative effects than positive ones.

amother

Fri, Jul 08 2011, 7:16 am

Seems like I have heard this before, and seen it too...
Life in Israel seems to be the cause.
I see even in homes that were or are very frum, there are children that just drift away due to peer pressure and the atmosphere. There are no easy solutions, but we all need to daven for siyata dishmaya.

veganesther

Fri, Jul 08 2011, 8:13 am

Look at your beautiful children. see the goodness in them. be cheerful in their presence. Laugh at their jokes. Prepare their favorite foods. Bless them on friday night. hug them and kiss them and look into their eyes.
Let go of the energy required to harp on what you consider shortcomings.

shabbatiscoming

Fri, Jul 08 2011, 8:18 am

amother wrote:

First of all, why be chicken and say this as amother?
Second of all, are you saying that this like this dont happen in london, chicago, and cape town? Really, that is very naive to say that. It is most certainly not only in israel.

Ruchel

Fri, Jul 08 2011, 8:29 am

Life where you don't fit in is a possible cause, be it Israel or anywhere else.

Kayza

Fri, Jul 08 2011, 8:37 am

amother wrote:

He's being totally put off by his elder brother who is very intolerant of his behaviour. He hates when our elder son gives divrei torah at the Shabbat table and says that before,

Firstly, you need to rein in your oldest son. You don't want not not let him say any divrei torah at the Shabbos table, but you can't let him run the table, give mussar to his siblings and / or overdo things in the d'var torah department. And, in general, he needs to back off - he is NOT his brother's mechnech. He's made his opposition clear, so he has fulfilled his responsibility.

Beyond that, there are people who deal with these issue. Find good who can work with the specifics of your family. These situations are never easy and none of us here really knows enough to give you advice truly geared to your children.

gryp

Fri, Jul 08 2011, 9:20 am

The title puzzled me because teenagers just about always conform- with their friends, not their family.

I'd focus on making Shabbos more pleasant, I'd invite guests, start a new tradition that you do at Shabbos meals (something Shabbosdik), make or buy an extra fancy dessert, and get the teens involved with all of these. Focus on how nice it is to have a day of family time, a day of relaxation, and how grateful we are to Hashem for this special day.

amother

Sun, Jul 10 2011, 12:26 am

OP here -

Thank you all for your support and not being judgemental! I thought I would be opening a can of worms when I started this thread and would be judged wrongly for sending my kids to non-religious schools (which I already feel guilty enough about).

On Shabbat they mix with their local friends who are all from DL homes in our neighbourhood but youngest son especially feels that he's drifting a bit from them because they are all at the local yeshiva high school and for various reasons he can't go there. In retrospect perhaps he is rebelling a bit as his way of fighting back against a very blinkered system that won't accept him.

I will certainly try to entertain a bit more as a way of having more people around the table rather than just the core family which seems to be a very difficult situation at the moment.

Shavuah tov everyone.

mummiedearest

Sun, Jul 10 2011, 6:17 pm

just because you became frum before they were born does not mean they have not seen change. my parents became frum before any of their children were born. we all chose different derachim. we all saw our parents growing in different ways, picking up different chumras, becoming more educated, etc. my bros went to a very yeshivish high school, and my mom decided to go along with some of that. of the four kids in my family, I think I'm the only one who is true to my parents' original intentions for us.

oh, and as the daughter of a bt, I can tell you that education in a frum school doesn't mean anything for the future. those schools assume the kids are getting a certain amount of education from the parents, and bt parents often have no experience with teaching kids these things, having not experienced it themselves.

advice? tell your 15 yr old to tone it down a bit and lay off bro. I had an incredibly hard time when my bros were in high school. we constantly got into arguments about hashkafa. I always came out of it feeling that my brothers were incredibly condescending. that's especially hard when the brother is younger. have him stick to simple divrei torah at the table. he can spend time separately sharing the more complicated ones with you. compliment your other kids where you can. if your daughter is not actually breaching tznius code, let her be. tznius is partially an internal thing. girls don't need to go to shul, leave her alone about that. she'll go when she wants to. I didn't start looking forward to shul until I was married a few months. when I was single, I avoided shul. it made me uncomfortable, partially because my parents hadn't taught me davening. that's one of those things they thought my schooling would cover. the school obviously expected my parents to do that. if she davens at home, that's fine. if your son doesn't want to go to shul, leave him alone. if he won't wear a kippa, make a rule that he has to wear it while eating in the house. otherwise, let him be. you can't control him at this age, he has to make his own decisions.

understand that while your kids have had more of a religious education than you did, they did not start on level ground with the kids whose parents are ffb. this does not mean that they start off with less, it means they come from a different place. kids of bts generally don't have family minhagim to mention, chumras that have been in the family for years, or parents who are sure of what to teach at what age and how. my ffb classmates from ffb parents often started with the what (minhag, etc)and eventually asked why. I started with the why and then settled on the what. again, your kids did not have an inferior upbringing, but they are different. diversity within the family is normal, and you need to accept whatever type of frumkeit each is comfortable with. you may find that they change quite a bit as adults.

lamplighter

Sun, Jul 10 2011, 6:54 pm

The most influential people in a teenagers life are their peers. If their peers are not religious that might be really hard for them. Keeping your home warm, positive and full of simchas chayim is your best route (the older brother routine- not!). If they can join frummer after school clubs etc that would be great.
I think it's important to try and make shabbos less of a stress. Invite other people over, maybe have the kids invite a friend, don't stretch out the meals too long etc.
In terms of your daughter, have you discussed her school issues with her? Be straight with her. Ask her why she wears clothes that upset the faculty or go against the rules. But be ready for any answer.

amother

Mon, Jul 11 2011, 1:07 am

mummiedearest wrote:

understand that while your kids have had more of a religious education than you did, they did not start on level ground with the kids whose parents are ffb. this does not mean that they start off with less, it means they come from a different place. kids of bts generally don't have family minhagim to mention, chumras that have been in the family for years, or parents who are sure of what to teach at what age and how. my ffb classmates from ffb parents often started with the what (minhag, etc)and eventually asked why. I started with the why and then settled on the what. again, your kids did not have an inferior upbringing, but they are different. diversity within the family is normal, and you need to accept whatever type of frumkeit each is comfortable with. you may find that they change quite a bit as adults.

OP here -

thank you mummiedearest that makes complete sense to me

grace413

Mon, Jul 11 2011, 2:25 am

amother wrote:

Sure, nobody outside of Israel goes OTD.

At least have the courage to use your screenname.

mummiedearest

Mon, Jul 11 2011, 9:44 am

amother wrote:

mummiedearest wrote:

OP here -

thank you mummiedearest that makes complete sense to me

I'm glad. do your kids have friends who are also children of bts? I did, so to me a lot of my "differences" from the majority of the kids in the class were still "normal." I also found that my hs teachers appreciated my interests in unusual topics and I never had a hard time bringing extra conversation into a class. (I was known to quote simon and garfunkel songs in class, and the teachers never complained. in fact, they usually had a good chuckle over it.) I know that in certain atmospheres these things are frowned upon, and if there's no one there in the same boat, it can be hard for a teen. if your kids don't have friends who are kids of bts, do you think it would benefit them to correspond with some? you may be able to find them some virtual pen pals.

I agree that peers can have a huge influence on teens, but they don't have to. I have had a very interesting collection of friends over the years, and I made my religious decisions based on my own understanding of life, not on my friends'. if you feel their friends are not good for them, find them an additional set of friends. but you can't do anything about their current friends other than hope that your kids will only pick up on their good qualilties. you can learn something positive from everyone. try to emphasize that.

I'm glad you're looking for a positive way to deal with all this. yes, shabbos can be incredibly hard when kids are so different from each other. there is one thing my family used to do (sometimes just the kids while my parents napped) that was nearly always peaceful. we used to play games together most shabbos afternoons. we liked things like scrabble and taboo. if we got into fights over it, the fights had nothing to do with religion. we were just being siblings, which I assume is what you really want for your children.

again, good luck amother.

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