WWYD - Have an "Open Sukkah" or Not? Need to decid

BeershevaBubby

Sun, Oct 09 2011, 10:33 am

I wouldn't and have a big sign explaining why... and encourage my neighbors to do the same.

bubby

Sun, Oct 09 2011, 10:38 am

What Rubber Ducky says.

flowerpower

Sun, Oct 09 2011, 10:41 am

Closing the sukkah at eleven pm sounds like a good idea. I would only put out drinks and have those that neeeed to use a sukkah come with their own food. If it gets messy then don't keep it open for the rest of the succos and put on a sign that due to the huge mess we had to keep our sukkah locked, sorry...

GetReal

Sun, Oct 09 2011, 10:47 am

After doing this for years she knows there will be a mess. And she said there is no way to lock the sukkah.

de_goldy

Sun, Oct 09 2011, 11:17 am

shalhevet wrote:

Can someone please explain to me what the point is of this? When I read the OP - before I read the link - I thought the idea was to give permission for people who don't have their own sukka to use your sukka for a meal - families or maybe singles living on their own.

Then I read the link and I was shocked. What hachnasas orchim/ mitzva is this at all? People come for a simchas beis hashoeva - I presume there is some central sukka serving drinks and perhaps light refreshments (or people bring their own to drink there). So why would they go "sukka-hopping" going from sukka to sukka all night? Maybe I misunderstood, but what is the mitzva of encouraging people to be out all night? Let them finish the simchas beis hashoeva at 11 or 12 and go home to eat and sleep in their own sukka.

That is without the damage they do - even if they would leave it in pristine condition, why do you need to host people at 3 in the morning?

Shalhevet, I think what goes on here is not the typical simchas beis hashoeva.
Picture dancing that begins at about 9pm and continues until 6am. Locals come, thousands of Israelis who descend on crown heights for tishrei come and people come from all over Brooklyn. It's extremely crowded.
The dancing is held on one specific block - on the street.
There is no general refreshments served, or general sukkah, but stores stay open very late.
Certain stores (pizza store etc) have a small sukkah where ppl can eat.
But chabad minhag is that men don't even drink water outside the sukkah.
So there are people who volunteer their sukkah for ppl who are attending simchas beis hashoeva and want to take a drink, eat something etc. Also, many of the Israelis who come have no sukkah of their own so they also use them.

Aidelmaidel - I think the way your sukkah has been treated is horrible and I would just not volunteer this year.
Good luck with whatever decision you come to.

grace413

Sun, Oct 09 2011, 11:26 am

Your first mistake was printing the signs on Hot Pink oaktag - such an untsnius color, they didn't look at it Very Happy

Seriously, you have done more than enough. Give yourself a break.

HindaRochel

Sun, Oct 09 2011, 11:39 am

This seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen. If someone should get hurt in and on your property you could be in a lot of trouble.

I am with Shalhevet. I can understand opening the Sukkah to families that haven't one, or putting yourself on a list to have a family or Yeshiva Bachur/Seminary girl etc. for a meal or so. But no...this?

One bottle of maskeh and a check isn't going to cover it, and between the expense, the aggravation and potential liability issue, I would say NO.

gryp

Sun, Oct 09 2011, 11:47 am

Aidelmaidel- Just say No. Every morning of Sukkos this year you'll wake up with no mess to clean and you'll be so relieved.

Sorry, but usually the people who stay up all night are the ones who can't figure out where their paper cup belongs when they're done drinking from it. Rolling Eyes

Btw, our sukkah is kind of open only because it's in a central place and obvious, and I'm always amazed at people who bring packages of cookies there or whatever and leave their garbage. No, we don't have a garbage can in our sukkah, but I'm sure that they can figure out a solution to that just like I can. Rolling Eyes

bubby

Sun, Oct 09 2011, 12:46 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

This seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen. If someone should get hurt in and on your property you could be in a lot of trouble.

That's a very good point.

Ruchel

Sun, Oct 09 2011, 1:41 pm

I don't know anyone who does this, and personally wouldn't consider it.
I am not familiar with people going into strangers' sukka like that? they would certainly ask before, if they even dared asking!

Shuly

Sun, Oct 09 2011, 4:12 pm

I grew up in NY and the kids (not Lubavitch) who wanted to hang out would go to Crown Heights for a "simchas beis hashoeva."
Why you would want to have a bunch of kids' aveiros on your head is beyond me. Let someone else get the "mitzvah."

shalhevet

Sun, Oct 09 2011, 6:13 pm

de_goldy wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Why does it go on so late? What about the people who live there and want to go to sleep? What if there are old or sick people or pregnant women or women after birth? I know of/ have been to dozens of simchas beis hosheavas in EY - Ashkenazi, Sephardi, chassidish, Litvish, MO and Chabad - and they never continue after 11-12 unless they are in an enclosed building like a shul or yeshiva and then without music if it gets late and will disturb people.

Quote:

There is no general refreshments served, or general sukkah, but stores stay open very late.

Well, here's my suggestion FWIW - instead of appealing to people to loan out their sukkas for dubious activities, appeal to them to donate money to build one (or more) communal sukkas alongside shuls or yeshivas. This is what happens in every simchas beis hashoeva I've seen here - there is a communal sukka with soft (why alcoholic for Heaven's sake?) drinks for all the thirsty simchas beis hashoeva-goers. If somewhere is a little more ambitious/ wealthy, they will have some cake/nash too.

Quote:

Certain stores (pizza store etc) have a small sukkah where ppl can eat.
But chabad minhag is that men don't even drink water outside the sukkah.

Lots of people are mehader with this - IDK why you think it is davka a Chabad minhag. See above for the solution.

Quote:

So there are people who volunteer their sukkah for ppl who are attending simchas beis hashoeva and want to take a drink, eat something etc. Also, many of the Israelis who come have no sukkah of their own so they also use them.

The bit about people not having a sukka (so where are they staying and eating the rest of the time?) I could understand, but it didn't even mention such people in the link. Also, can I ask a stupid question? If someone goes to a simchas beis hashoeva for 2-3 hours, why do people need to eat all the time?

chanab

Sun, Oct 09 2011, 9:39 pm

Shalhevet, it was the Rebbe´s request that simchas beis hashoeva be all night. Even the nights of Yom Tov, when there is no music, there will still be bochurim dancing at 6 a.m. rain or not. Alot of the bochurim join together for an inspiring farbrengen before heading out to dancing--that is the purpose of the kol dichfin succas. Aidel´s succa is an obvious abuse of the system.

aidelmaidel

Sun, Oct 09 2011, 10:20 pm

So I went back to this thread from last year: http://imamother.com/forum/vie.....hter=

After a long discussion with my husband and mashpia, I agreed not to do it. Since there are other Kol Dichfin sukkahs on our block, I was told I need not feel guilty. I let it go and since I had told the guy I would call him back if we were doing it I let it go.

He actually called back tonight to check in and I told him sadly, I couldn't do it because I can't handle the clean up work this year, but to please consider us for next year. He agreed and said he would call us next year.

So there you have it. Thanks for all your advice!

zaq

Sun, Oct 09 2011, 10:20 pm

I think you posted a rant last year about this; right? Story and details sound familiar.

You know that Einstein's definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. In your shoes I would say absolutely not ever again unless you're prepared to get the same results as last year without complaint. Maybe it was the surprise that bothered you last year and this year you know what to expect. If that's the case, you go, girl. But if you will resent having to clean up after a bunch of pigs--

WHAT ARE YOU CRAZY? WHY ARE YOU EVEN CONTEMPLATING SAYING YES?

CHBubby

Tue, Oct 11 2011, 10:10 pm

We were in your situation a few years back. We asked a Rav and he told us that to stop , but we should be "Mevater Neder "( with three people present ) , because we had done it for a lot of years.

MommyZ

Tue, Oct 11 2011, 10:16 pm

Best of luck with the whole situation.

hadasa

Wed, Oct 12 2011, 1:04 am

Maybe by next year you'll have a way to lock the Sukkah after a certain time.