Isnt playing draidel, gambling?

CherryBerry

Sun, Dec 02 2012, 9:56 pm

I was just thinking about the game of dreidel. isnt it considered gambling?
why is this ok when so many other things, like playing with card decks, or playing poker, etc are taboo because gambling is frowned upon?

is gambling actually against halacha?

m in Israel

Mon, Dec 03 2012, 6:39 am

Of course dreidel playing is gambling -- as are lotteries and Chinese auctions, and somehow no one objects to that. . . .

MY understanding is that the Halachic issue involved in gambling is that since gamblers subconciously actually believe they are going to win when they gamble, then when you win money from someone it is considered stealing because they never really fully agreed to give up that money. I don't know all the Halachic implications of this, and I would assume that it would not be the same problem in a Chinese auction for Tzedakkah, where you are using tzedekkah money and intend to give that money to tzedekah regardless of if you win or loose. It also wouldn't apply if the money wasn't yours to begin with -- I.e. one person provides all the money for the game -- or if you are not playing for keeps.

imasinger

Mon, Dec 03 2012, 6:44 am

I understood that's how dreidel came to be associated with chanukah; because when groups of people were hiding and learning torah, if the Greek soldiers came by, they'd pretend that they had been hiding and gambling.

But if you actually play dreidel expecting to win anything, you generally don't. The game is set up with no really good payoff.

BeershevaBubby

Mon, Dec 03 2012, 7:09 am

imasinger wrote:

Sorry, but the evidence doesn't support what basically all Jewish kids are taught in school.

The earliest dreidels that have been found date from about the 1500s, in Germany and have origins from a common Medieval gambling game called teetom.

http://www.gamesmuseum.uwaterl......html

Tamiri

Mon, Dec 03 2012, 7:54 am

Yesha, what about using bows and arrows to trick the Romans/Greeks/Whatevers in Rabbi Akiva's time? Have child-sized apparati been found relating to that period?
Anyway, I learned that both were used to trick the stupid enemies. I doubt my teachers were wrong. It's even written in books!

m in Israel

Mon, Dec 03 2012, 9:16 am

solo wrote:

I can't imagine how dreidel- as it's played today- could be considered gambling. Is playing parcheesi gambling?

What do you mean "as it's played today"? Played by first graders at their Chanukah mesiba with pennies? I don't think that is what OP is talking about. But in many yeshiva high schools today, dreidel is played with real money (I mean amounts well more than $5 or $10 per player) for keeps. A person can make or lose the money they put in and the money other people put in based on what they spin. How is that NOT gambling?

MimiMommy

Mon, Dec 03 2012, 9:29 am

Yes, it's considered gambling. I've lost many a chocolate coin due to this game, and my addiction is getting worse. This year I want to win back at least 5 coins.

Puh-leeze.

BeershevaBubby

Mon, Dec 03 2012, 10:45 am

solo wrote:

I can't imagine how dreidel- as it's played today- could be considered gambling. Is playing parcheesi gambling?

Do you understand what the word "gambling" means?

Quote:

Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Typically, the outcome of the wager is evident within a short period.

So... how can dreidel be anything but a gambling game?

SS6099

Mon, Dec 03 2012, 11:32 am

My kids learned that playing draidel for money (other than pennies, I assume) is forbidden due to gambling.
We play with chocolate! Whoever gets the most, gains the most weight, lol!

zaq

Mon, Dec 03 2012, 12:02 pm

m in Israel wrote:

But in many yeshiva high schools today, dreidel is played with real money (I mean amounts well more than $5 or $10 per player) for keeps. A person can make or lose the money they put in and the money other people put in based on what they spin. How is that NOT gambling?

Are you serious? Of course that's gambling. It's not materially different from shooting craps. Has the matter been brought to the attention of the administration?

m in Israel

Mon, Dec 03 2012, 12:09 pm

zaq wrote:

m in Israel wrote:

Are you serious? Of course that's gambling. It's not materially different from shooting craps. Has the matter been brought to the attention of the administration?

I don't know if this issue exists in Eretz Yisroel, but when I lived in the NY area it was widespread -- not just one yeshiva. The administrations always spoke out against it, but as with most of these types of issues, some boys listen, and some don't. Even the elementary school that I worked in (a middle of the road yeshiva elementary school -- not MO, not Chassidishe) had some issues. They needed to make official rules allowing dreidel playing only with coins to prevent it turning into higher stakes games.

solo

Mon, Dec 03 2012, 12:40 pm

Never heard of High stakes dreidel. I know the issue of high stakes card games has been addressed many times. And is not just an issue on Chanukah. I wasn't aware that serious dreidel playing was an issue in any mainstream ny yeshivas. And I can't imagine why it would be seeing as there's no skill involved. But apparently there are some posters who know otherwise.

animeme

Wed, Dec 05 2012, 3:35 pm

On Shabbos, my family doesn't play any games that are used for gambling, I.e. standard playing cards, bingo, dice (we use a spinner). And we don't play dreidel, even with Cheerios.

Re. the halachic implications of gambling, I may be wrong, but I believe there is a difference between Ashkenazim and Sefardim. I heard that according to Sefardim, it can make you pasul l'edus. But I don't know that it would include dreidel.

miami85

Wed, Dec 05 2012, 3:54 pm

Yes dreidel is gambling, but im not familiar with gambling being against halacha per se. I know a prominent rabbi who play the lottery once a year. There are halachos about bal tashchis and being wasteful. There are halachos about coveting another person's wealth, trickery, deceit. Gambling is a bad habit and addictive but if done in a way not to transgress the things mentioned above then there shouldn't be anything wrong-- if it were truly assur we wouldnt be able to use parking meters!-- isnt that gambling?

BeershevaBubby

Thu, Dec 06 2012, 12:10 am

miami85 wrote:

How in the world is metered parking gambling?? You're paying for a service. You're paying a tax.

You can say driving or flying is a gamble too....