do you invite people who drive on Shabbos?

mumoo

Fri, Dec 15 2006, 1:35 am

I invited my sister and her sons for Shabbos. She knows about needing to stay over, but she just told me they are coming back from a long day trip and will try to be there before bentshlicht.

I don't want to uninvite them...

chavamom

Fri, Dec 15 2006, 1:48 am

Yes, we do. Those who permit it base their reasoning on the fact that you are allowed to be 'mechalel shabbos' to save a life. There is a whole line of reasoning that goes (to the best of my memory) like this - you are allowed to save a life on shabbos 'so that they might keep many shabbosos'. They extend 'life' to 'neshamos' and that they may come to keep many shabbosos. OK, I'm sure I didn't get all the details there, but that is the basic reasoning as I remember it (I'm going back into the ancient memory banks to a shiur I heard many years ago). It's a sheila and not every agrees, but the end reasoning is 'if you are trying to bring them closer to torah, you are allowed'.

I also think in your specific instance since you told her to come by candlelighting and she says she'll try to be there, you are probably covered even according to those that hold by the shita that you can't invite someone who will travel on shabbos.

BeershevaBubby

Fri, Dec 15 2006, 2:03 am

I was told that a person fulfills their Halachic obligation regarding 'causing' someone to drive on Shabbat by extending them an invitation for a Shabbat by offering them a place to sleep over.

Whether the person takes them up on it or not, is up to that person, but the invitor is not 'over' any sin if they choose to drive.

I had this recently when friends and I were planning a Chanukah event. I said I would rather not have an all weekend thing, since I knew secular friends of ours would be driving on Shabbat, and I didn't want to be the reason they were driving. I was told that as long as I give these people an option to sleep over somewhere, HALCHICALLY I'm covered. Personally however, I still felt strange about it.

mumoo

Fri, Dec 15 2006, 2:26 am

Kmelion wrote:

I was told that a person fulfills their Halachic obligation regarding 'causing' someone to drive on Shabbat by extending them an invitation for a Shabbat by offering them a place to sleep over.

the problem is that my Rov poskens that I may not invite someone who I know will be driving, like some of my friends invite relatives just for one meal. if they offer accomodations they are off the hook, sts

so in my case, my sister knows where we stand, and for many years stayed for the whole Shabbos. but now, after I invite, she says, even if they get here on time, she is going to go to a Friday nite service (at a cons. syn-get this, with the guest Rabbi she is seeing)

so like you said crayon, if she does come back here after the service it will be like a tenth of trip it would take to go back to her home

greenfire

Fri, Dec 15 2006, 9:17 am

Definately - they drive anyway - whether you like it or not - so they may as weel come for shabbos. You never know what someone is to gain spiritually.

I heard of a situation where people were parking along a street of a neighborhood every shabbos near the shul. The neighborhood was getting annoid and the rabbi asked the Rebbe what he should do the reply was to "build them a parking lot"

mumoo

Fri, Dec 15 2006, 2:42 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

This is obviously a question for your rav...

yeah, I talked to him today. apparently I need to be more clear when I do invite.

anyway, my question was whether driving less is better and so should I invite her knowing she'd be driving even though its closer. psak: no

was it ok that I gave a blanket "my door is always open?" : yes

if she does show up after benchlicht should I let her in? :absolutely

when I was first told that I cant rely on just offering accomodations I was upset. I believed that its beter to drive to experience a shabbos than to not have one at all. time has shown that his way has been better. for example, my sister asked me to watch her children overnight. problem was that night was in the middle of a 3day yontiff (shavuos). she knew I'd only accept them before/after the yontiff and said it was too long, so forget it. then she changed her mind (babysitters are hard to come by!) and let me have ny niece and nephew for the whole yontiff. it was great.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Dec 21 2006, 3:35 am

yup, yup, and yup:) I would invite someone if that was the only way that they would be able to experience a shabbat meal and the feeling of shabbat.

I grew up that way. it was a biiiiig part of our home. my thought is if there is a jew out there that will be mechalel shabbat but wants to see what shabbat is all about, how do you say no to that? I have already seen (not in my home but my parent's home) that there have been ppl that have over time stopped driving and even become full fledged frum jews JUST from getting to see what a shabbat was like.

I find that to be sooooooooooo beautiful and amazing:)

mumoo

Thu, Dec 21 2006, 1:13 pm

I intellectually understand letting them leave (clearly you cant hold them hostage), but I feel I need to be careful. -

Ata certain age children do not see shades of gray. I worry that they see wonderful, nice smart people, who we treat very well and "they don't keep Shabbos and they're ok" sort of thing

bonzie

Thu, Dec 21 2006, 1:39 pm

my husband asked a rav this question and he said its a case by case decision, he told my husband the general answer is no, you may never willingly cause someone to be mechalal shabbas, but there are exceptions to the rule, for example one couple he said we should let drive over, we asked e/ shabbas, by the fourth shabbas he said they can't drive over anymore, so we invited them on the contigency they wouldn't drive over, and they said fine that they love coming to us and that they'll stay over, and that was their first real shabbas.

this is really something that someone cannot assume answers for and must go to a rav.

mumoo

Thu, Dec 21 2006, 1:57 pm

bonzie wrote:

yasher koach to you! Seems that your Rov was able to posken "the best of both worlds"

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Dec 21 2006, 2:28 pm

mumoo wrote:

first of all that is not necasarily true, that children do not see shades of gray, but on the other hand, if they dont see shades of gray, as you say, they also might not really even catch on that such a person, if they have driven over, is a jew. they also might not even get to see the fact that they drive over. you can keep your children in the house and they will never even have to know that the ppl drive over.
just b/c a person does not keep shabbat the same way that we do, does not mean that the child has to think that those ppl are not ok.
my parents had guests in the house that were not observant when my sister was pretty young and she never even asked but when she finally did, we just said to her that such and such was also a jew but they did not know all of the laws and what you are allowed to do yet, that they were learning and that they will learn in time that they are not allowed to drive. and the answer made sense to her and she accepted the answer with complete okness.

mumoo

Thu, Dec 21 2006, 4:05 pm

my fear was not that my children would respect and accept other Jew's current levels of observance but that they would see a perfectly happy, smart, successful Jew and knowing they don't keep Shabbos consider that an option.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Dec 21 2006, 4:43 pm

mumoo wrote:

right, that is what I thought you meant and to that I say, if you make judaism, religious, frum yehadut in a way in the home that the children will not think that the other way is an option, it will not even cross their minds that it is an option.

I know that it never crossed my mind that being not observant was an option in life. I loved growing up frum and I also loved growing up seeing all of the ppl cross our paths that were not frum...I saw it differently. I saw it that those ppl were the ones that had the choice that OUR way of life was an option, not the other way around.

ceo

Sun, Dec 31 2006, 3:16 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Shabbat is coming, that's all nice and beautiful, BUT there are many, many, many poskim who say that you cannot invite someone over if they will drive home afterwards. There are many different ways to "get around" this, however, you can't just invite a non-frum person over based on your reasoning, without first checking with your posek, as it can be problematic.

ceo

Sun, Dec 31 2006, 3:20 pm

mumoo wrote:

Right! a friend of mine told me that she had to put a stop to her parents and in-laws dropping by on long summer shabbos afternoons. She didn't want her kids getting the idea that "Grandma and granpa are great people, and they drive on shabbos!"

One thing about inviting a guest to sleep over: I learned that it has to be an accomodation that the guest would accept. Meaning: you can't say, "Oh, why don't you sleep over?you can sleep on our couch." It has to be like, "Oh,please stay over. we already made up the bed in the guest room for you."