I learn Gemara. Ask me Anything.

Log in / Sign Up

List of Forums + New Post Recipe Box Usergroups Following My Posts Bookmarks

Private Messages Advanced Search Rules New User Guide FAQ Advertise Contact Us

Forum -> Interesting Discussions

Previous 1 2

View latest: 24h 48h 72h

Peanut2

Tue, Apr 30 2013, 8:10 am

notshanarishona wrote:

It says in the mishna sota. The shulchan aruch paskens (which is the way we hold by) that it is talking about the Torah Shebal Peh which includes gemara. The Rema adds that women should learn the halachos that apply to them.

It is one of two opinions stated in the Mishna with regard to learning Torah, not Torah shebeal-pe.

As you pointed out, the distinction between Written and Oral Torah comes much later, though I do not at all think that the Mechaber, nor anyone else, claims that this distinction is in the Mishna.

The Rambam is the source most often quoted for the necessity for women to learn halachot that pertain to them, IIRC.

When it comes to women's Torah education people "hold by" the Chofetz Chaim, generally, since women's Torah education was significantly more limited, less formal, and far more practical until his time and Beis Yaakov.

The late Lubavitcher rebbe allowed women to study Talmud.

The distinction between TSBP and TSBK most certainly did not exist in the Mishna.

(Of course, the mishna is TSBP, so if you think women cannot learn TSBP you will have to take my word for it.)

amother

Tue, Apr 30 2013, 8:47 am

amother wrote:

Natural Mom, I did say I don't know enough to answer all over Shas, although I hope to one day...

I learned in high school and then stopped when I joined a more right-wing society, and got busy raising my kids. And though I know there are busy mothers who learn seriously, it's hard to imagine how they do it.

But lately (kids about grown) I've been feeling that I need something more in my life. I tried learning parsha every week with Rashi, listening to Parsha shiurim - and then, I found a gemara shiur on-line that I really enjoy. I am not able to keep up with Daf Yomi, because this is a one-hour shiur, and after learning Brachos just by listening on a player (while driving, cooking etc) I decided I didn't really know it well enough. So now I take notes and it probably takes me about 2 hours per daf, so I don't do much more than an amud (or one side of a Day) a day.

But I am hoping that as my skills(and attention span) improve I will be able to pick up the pace.

I feel like I understand many halachos much better from having seen them from the original Gemara, and I feel like I gained some new insights and appreciation for Shabbos. (The shiur is not just Gemara, he brings many meforshim and hashkafa inyanim as well.)

I would pick up a gemara in front of my children if I were looking up an aggadta, for example, from a Rashi in chumash. They know I learned Gemara in the past. But I am not ready to deal with their reactions if they knew I learn regularly.

In fact, I didn't tell DH til I finished Brachos and was well into Shabbos. His first reaction was "you're not allowed to" but when I asked him to prove it, he said, okay, but can we keep it quiet? Which was fine with me, as I have no agenda etc.

But my one teenaged daughter who is home knows, because I couldn't keep hiding it. And she tells me her teachers said a woman who learns is learning tiflus, which is not exactly accurate. But it's a bit late now to wish I had sent her somewhere somewhat less, I don't know, extreme? insular? somewhere where the person teaching halacha is not a 25 yo young woman who doesn't know the difference between halacha, minhag and current cultural practice etc.

Wow amother - Talmidah Chachemah - Salut

You should have been born male..... lol. j/k

signed,
envious

Peanut2

Tue, Apr 30 2013, 8:54 am

Webyeshiva.org offers online classes to men and women in a variety of areas, including Talmud.

Classes are free. Donations are appreciated.

The classes are interactive. You log on and can see the teacher and the page and ask questions in real time. You can also view recordings of classes you missed.

Lovey Dovey

Tue, Apr 30 2013, 4:02 pm

How do you say "You Are A Nut" in Aramaic ?

Very Happy

enneamom

Tue, Apr 30 2013, 4:06 pm

Lovey Dovey wrote:

How do you say "You Are A Nut" in Aramaic ?

Very Happy

Wow, I hope you're not trying to insult the OP? Why would you say a thing like that?

Lovey Dovey

Tue, Apr 30 2013, 5:29 pm

enneamom wrote:

Lovey Dovey wrote:

How do you say "You Are A Nut" in Aramaic ?

Very Happy

Wow, I hope you're not trying to insult the OP? Why would you say a thing like that?

It's just a joke!!!!

Come on, OP is funny, I like her, the title is clever, now lets keep it funny and chilled.

No; I don't thinks she is nuts, nor do I believe she learns gemora!

enneamom

Tue, Apr 30 2013, 5:42 pm

Lovey Dovey wrote:

enneamom wrote:

Lovey Dovey wrote:

How do you say "You Are A Nut" in Aramaic ?

Very Happy

Wow, I hope you're not trying to insult the OP? Why would you say a thing like that?

It's just a joke!!!!

Come on, OP is funny, I like her, the title is clever, now lets keep it funny and chilled.

No; I don't thinks she is nuts, nor do I believe she learns gemora!

Why on earth do you not believe she learns gemara?

And why are you equating the two? Edited to clarify: why are you equating learning gemara with being nuts?

Ima2NYM_LTR

Tue, Apr 30 2013, 5:54 pm

Lovey Dovey wrote:

enneamom wrote:

Lovey Dovey wrote:

How do you say "You Are A Nut" in Aramaic ?

Very Happy

Wow, I hope you're not trying to insult the OP? Why would you say a thing like that?

It's just a joke!!!!

Come on, OP is funny, I like her, the title is clever, now lets keep it funny and chilled.

No; I don't thinks she is nuts, nor do I believe she learns gemora!

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

enneamom

Tue, Apr 30 2013, 5:55 pm

Right on, Ima. Yes

Lovey Dovey

Tue, Apr 30 2013, 9:16 pm

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

Lovey Dovey wrote:

enneamom wrote:

Lovey Dovey wrote:

How do you say "You Are A Nut" in Aramaic ?

Very Happy

Wow, I hope you're not trying to insult the OP? Why would you say a thing like that?

It's just a joke!!!!

Come on, OP is funny, I like her, the title is clever, now lets keep it funny and chilled.

No; I don't thinks she is nuts, nor do I believe she learns gemora!

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

OMG!!! I’m under attack for making a freekin joke!!!!

I honestly thought OP was kidding and I went with it. I see now that this is serious business.

I sincerely apologies!!!

I don't care if she learns gemora, nor do I think a lady/girl learning gemora is nuts!!!

Personally, I think it maybe “misguided”; because I learnt, the gemora brings reb Eliezer - who said "one who teaches his daughter Torah is as if he had taught her tiflus". (I looked it up online to make sure I'm remembering correctly. http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2......html)

If her rav says it's OK, why not!!! (Whatever makes her happy Smile

)

Merrymom

Tue, Apr 30 2013, 9:32 pm

In my super yeshivish seminary, when we were learning what the gemara says about something we were given the actual pages (photocopied), by the rabbonim that taught the classes no less. I therefore am sure that there is no problem with learning gemara. That said, I won't say that I learn gemara so much as I read gemara. If one doesn't have a rav or rebbetzin to learn from are they really learning? How do you know if you are understanding it correctly? So I read from it all the time, especially when someone on Imamother makes outlandish statements, then I go and check the source as usually it's very different than the way it was quoted. I'm not ashamed of who knows either, it's not a crime.

emama

Tue, Apr 30 2013, 9:49 pm

Kol hakavod, OP. Enjoy your learning. I can relate. I just came back from a women's mishna/gemarah shiur, which I try to never miss. It makes my week.

MaBelleVie

Tue, Apr 30 2013, 10:32 pm

There are many possible interpretations for "teaches his daughter Torah." Personally, I would love to have the skills to learn gemara. It's not a problem in my shita either. I just don't have the background, and I'm not at a point in my life that it's reasonable to start.

amother

Wed, May 01 2013, 1:35 pm

I did shnayim mikrah (weekly parsha + rashi) from 9th grade on, for I guess about 12 years, every single week. Then during a really difficult pregnancy I just couldn't keep it up. Baby is now 3+ and I was having a hard time getting into it again, or getting into any seder kavuah for learning, and feeling guilty and lazy. I felt a shot of inspiration during all the siyum hashas hype so I bought myself an Artscroll Brachos and started "learning" the daf. I am using quotations because I read the english sides only- the aramaic with nekudos and then the translation and commentary. I have been able to keep up so far and do well with the forced structure (if I am too lazy/tired/busy to do it today then I will have to do 2 tomorrow...). Some days I feel a real connection and understanding to what I read and some days I am just reading and either totally confused or not really processing the words, but I just keep to it. My husband has no problem with it, and I don't really understand why he would. The litvish understanding of tiflus is that we don't publically teach gemora classes to women or force them into it, but if individuals have an interest, it is not forbidden. Regardless, I would find it super upsetting to be married to a person who didn't ALLOW me to do something I want to do that really does not impact him. Anyway, sorry to be butting in OP.

#1 Mom

Wed, May 01 2013, 1:50 pm

op, my husband wants to know if he can be your chavrusa?

amother

Wed, May 01 2013, 2:08 pm

amother above with the artscroll, I found it very hard to follow, although I still have Berachos first volume and I may try to use it for chazara.

I recommend you try listening to Rav Shalom Rosner here.

As for a chavrusa (two requests above) I find it easier to learn according to my own schedule.

amother

Thu, May 02 2013, 12:56 pm

amother wrote:

I am doing well with the Artscroll, plus I am much faster than a shiur so I get bored and space out when someone else is explaining what I can read on my own. Thanks for the suggestion, though. Maybe if I had a really long commute, I would find a shiur useful, but for now, doing it on my own during my lunchbreak is perfect.

Page 2 of 2

Previous 1 2