Molybdomancy = divination with molten metal

bigsis144

Tue, Nov 12 2013, 7:54 pm

I just learned a new word! I love new words.
I didn't realize there was a specific name for that molten-metal-ayin-hara stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molybdomancy

Quote:

Molybdomancy is a technique of divination using molten metal. Typically molten lead or tin is dropped into water.
The method was invented in ancient Greece, and today it is a common New Year tradition in the Nordic countries and Germany and Austria. Classically, tin is melted on a stove and poured into a bucket of cold water. The resulting shape is either directly interpreted as an omen for the future, or is rotated in a candlelight to create shadows, whose shapes are then interpreted.
...
The shapes are often interpreted not only literally, but also symbolically: a bubbly surface refers to money, a fragile or broken shape misfortune. Ships refer to travelling, keys to career advancement, a basket: a good mushroom year, and a horse: a new car.

Not surprised there is NO mention of it as a Jewish tradition. Sorry, believers, but Chukas haGoy seems to apply here.

(Unless Chukas haGoy only applies to things like fashion and not actual divination... Rolling Eyes

)

bigsis144

Tue, Nov 12 2013, 11:32 pm

Check any of the recent "ayin hara removal" or "Rebbetzin Aidel Miller" threads.

ex. http://imamother.com/forum/vie.....rt=20
I just read through that thread again and saw that imasoftov mentioned molybdomancy a few days ago and I totally missed it.

imasoftov

Wed, Nov 13 2013, 8:02 am

Ruchel wrote:

Removing ayn hara is not divination.

Yet again, no good comes from bashing other people's minhagim, even if we personally don't like them.

I found in another ayin hara thred (kein yirbu?) "Sometimes you get to see the complete face of the person who gave you an eyin hora." http://www.imamother.com/forum.....96341

Divination includes both predicting the future and obtaining unknown information.

And a comment that the shapes would indicate if the person had an ayin hara http://failedmessiah.typepad.c......html

I also read another description of the process "lead is melted and cast into a bucket of water over the person’s head, if there are no air bubbles, the evil eye was removed" at http://mekubal.wordpress.com/2.....lead/

seeker

Wed, Nov 13 2013, 11:06 am

Ruchel wrote:

Removing ayn hara is not divination.

Yet again, no good comes from bashing other people's minhagim, even if we personally don't like them.

Would love to see a solid explanation of the difference. Seems rather similar to me.

No good comes from bashing, but good could come from discussing and gaining information about questionable practices.

This is not a matter of opinion or "personally" not liking them. Lo sinachashu and darkei emori are real mitzvos with real halachos. A lot of study is involved in figuring out whether a practice is legitimately Jewish or, shall we say, "other" in origin, to determine whether it is allowed.

It's astounding (and not a little frightening) to learn how many non-Jewish ideas and customs became part of Jewish practice over the centuries, to the point where we even perceive some of them as "required" when in fact they may be "forbidden" or at best, neither. Many people know a lot of halacha but not enough history and culture to effectively apply halachos such as darkei emori.

BlueRose52

Wed, Nov 13 2013, 11:19 am

seeker wrote:

It's astounding (and not a little frightening) to learn how many non-Jewish ideas and customs became part of Jewish practice over the centuries, to the point where we even perceive some of them as "required" when in fact they may be "forbidden" or at best, neither. Many people know a lot of halacha but not enough history and culture to effectively apply halachos such as darkei emori.

Chas v'shalom! Any practice that is commonly accepted among frum yidden today must have holy and sacred origins, and most definitely is what Hashem wants us to do! I once heard from a Rav that we can know this also because Hashem would never have allowed it to gain popularity among the frum tzibur if it wasn't spiritually worthwhile.
Banging head

BlueRose52

Wed, Nov 13 2013, 11:40 am

seeker wrote:

I really don't think sarcasm is going to promote meaningful conversation here.

You're right. I just can't resist sometimes.

But to be honest, what I said sarcastically, I have heard people say in absolute earnestness.

Frumdoc

Fri, Nov 15 2013, 5:19 am

BlueRose52 wrote:

seeker wrote:

I honestly thought this was genuine, not sarcasm Smile

Because it is exactly what I would expect to hear Wink

BlueRose52

Fri, Nov 15 2013, 7:27 am

DrMom wrote:

I must have missed something.

Why are we talking about molten-metal fortune-telling mumbo-jumbo on a frum ladies' website?

I saw at least 2 other threads on this frum ladies' website where people discussed going to her or inquiring about how to go.

PinkFridge

Fri, Nov 15 2013, 7:55 am

DrMom wrote:

I must have missed something.

Why are we talking about molten-metal fortune-telling mumbo-jumbo on a frum ladies' website?

Because in one of those delicious moments of serendipity that result in a sequential thread entry, this thread precedes "Has anyone gone to Rebbetzin Miller?".

PinkFridge

Fri, Nov 15 2013, 10:29 am

If it was anyone else, I'd be even more skeptical than I am now. But I've met this woman and know enough about her family - her haskama from Rav Scheinberg has to be genuine, she's a great niece. And she's a great granddaughter of "All for the Boss", Reb Yaakov Yosef Herman, zt"l. So for someone who does have this as a strong mesorah - personally, my chassidic genes are really, really recessive- she seems like a fine shalicha.

seeker

Fri, Nov 15 2013, 11:54 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I think that's part of why people fall for these things. Yichus does not have any bearing on halacha. Yeah, I also find it disturbing, but if someone has a "mesorah" of something that is wrong, all that means is that someone was wrong a couple hundred years ago and they passed it on. What, people couldn't make mistakes a couple hundred years ago? BTW I'm pretty sure Rav Scheinberg and Rav Herman did not do lead pouring - I could be wrong but I'm assuming her mesorah came from her other side, and I have no idea who that would be...