Question for those doing Dina Friedman course

amother

Tue, Jan 14 2014, 11:49 am

I am looking for mothers who are listening to or currently using techniques from Dina's Friedman's Chanoch Lnaar program. I need some help with my 4 year old daughter.

DD, 4 years old, Is the type of child who needs power/authority. at the same time she loves to give and help. Up until 2 weeks ago she was a star child, occasionally getting stuck as a mild stage 1 kid but an overall charm. She is smart and very mature (maybe too much) and would once in a while show a bit of a manipulating character. Which is weird because she is a softy mostly. Will run to the baby if it cries, always watches over the weaker girls in class etc. She was reasonable, always has a million questions, eager to learn,eager to please / help with anything and loved the fact that she was (is) loved by everyone. Teachers, grandparents (big metzia) neighbors, cousins friends ..

The change drastically happened when the 2 younger ones started becoming more independent. Examples: Younger sibling can complete puzzle without asking for her help. Or chooses which game to play (it's only fair to take chances?..) is required to share, can dress just like she can, and is getting a bunch of attention for growing independence.

The baby is on the floor alot and touches her things. She thinks it's not cute anymore. The baby is taking steps and starting to walk and she is not liking it. At all.
Bottom line, she's jealous. Big time.
And she's acting it out. She is completely not herself. Like not my child. It's not nice to say it but I can't help saying it, she became a little monster.. *cry*

She fipped from an "always" smily girl to a angry grouch. Pushing all my buttons and breeching every single limit. She is in total manipulating mode and threatening (everyone over everything. I won't eat unless you give me this or that. Not going to school unless I get a lolly. Etc etc) The bus is honking and she won't move, just sits on the stoops like a board. Fighting siblings, everything is suddenly hers and hers only, cries if I try an ignoring technique, and the tantrums.. oh... she throws toys, takes away things from others, tears arts n crafts (her own and others), are you getting the picture or need I say more?

Yesterday her teacher called to ask what's wrong because she started acting weird in class. Only classtime, she's still her old self while playing with the other kids. Oi oi..
I am crying while I'm typing this.
I completely broke down today when I sent her off to school today. I feel like I am walking on eggshells around her. I turn into a nervous wreck the hour she returns home. Younger sibling afraid of her too. I cannot look at her sad face. She is in pain. My household is upside down. We are all stressed out. I know it's not the end of the world but I can't sleep at night, can't eat, can't think properly. My children are my life. This is a pure nightmare. Dh said he wishes he can just wake up and see it was just a bad dream.

When asked how she feels about the change in behavior she outright said she is jealous. Her exact words "I'm jealous, I have a yetzer hora in my heart. I don't wana be good. I wana scream to make you angry"
(Beautiful. I feel like the worst parent e.v.e.r.)
Asked her how I can give her more attention so she said if I let her sleep in my bed she will become her old self back. Ya well... of course I gave in and of course she is her not usual self anyway.
Sad

I want to point out that the amount of attention she gets didn't get less, others are getting it too which is bothering her.
I give her massages and hugs at every opportunity. Wgen she gets out of hand I hold tight as in a bear hug until she calms down. She actually likes it. Her calmness lasts for the next 10 minutes or till she finds sonething else to destroy or fight about. I am going to lose my cool very very soon of this doesn't stop Sad

Right now I am working with whatever I can up to the lesson of a stage 1 work through. But I think she maybe falls under stage 2? Can I skip 1 and listen to 2 first?

What is the right approach?

Is there help for this situation in any of the work throughs???

If you read it all, thank you!

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, Jan 14 2014, 12:35 pm

I'm not taking her course now, but I would incorporate both simultaneously since this is such a drastic change, and not her inherent nature.

For attention, do an extra attention-giving method since you're already giving what's usually enough -- arrange a date night for her with you, and take her out somewhere. Pizza, ice cream, shopping, doesn't matter. Just you and her. Once a week for a couple of weeks.

For the need to be in power and feel like she has not lost her place as the oldest in the family, give her jobs. These will also shower her with attention at her accomplishing them. Ask her to be in charge of [taking in the mail, setting the table, emptying the dryer, dusting, emptying the dishwasher -- pick one or two, or come up with your own; these are all doable at 4 yo]. Lavish praise at her growth through it, since it seems like her younger siblings are being praised for advancing, and she needs some advances too.

Hatzlacha!

Last edited by Hashem_Yaazor on Tue, Jan 14 2014, 9:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

granolamom

Tue, Jan 14 2014, 2:13 pm

I took the course a long time ago and I didnt sleep much last night so I might be misunderstanding your post a bit. seems to me she's in a stage two, not one. she wants power. adding in extra attention won't ease her need for more power.
also I would not ask the child how you can increase attention. YOU are the one in control here, that's the whole point, give her power in an appropriate way but do not allow her to take it where it is not hers (deciding how you will give her attention). I would come up with a list of things you think would be helpful and try them and see how it goes.
you can, and I did at one point, add in attention while you are working a stage two. the easiest way to do that (and surprisingly effective) is to use the child's name when you address her (instead of 'did you have a nice day in school' you can say 'chani, did you have a nice day in school') and to touch her in passing. like if she's sitting at the table and you walk by, you can pat her shoulder or head. things like that. things that dont seem like much but let the child know you are noticing them. its not enough to stop a stage one but enough to complement a stage two workthrough.
I always get stuck with stage two because its hard for me to come up with age appropriate areas where my kids can get more power (I'm naturally a bit of a control freak and maybe I dont like giving it up?). but any choices that she can make, let her without your intervention. what she wears, how she does her hair, which days of the week she showers, teach her to cook her own breakfast or give her special jobs like setting up the candlesticks before shabbos or setting the table.
if she pulls stuff like 'I'm not going to eat unless I get a lolly' that is classic stage two. so fine, she can skip dinner. that's her choice. she wont starve. sits there and wont get on the bus? ok, she chose to skip school, what are your consequences for that? or if you must then drive her, let her 'pay you back' for your time, either with money (cab fare is five bucks) or errands (I didnt have time to do the dishes because I was driving you, you need to wash the dinner dishes) or time (it took me 20 min to drive you, you need to watch the baby for 20 min while I do what I couldnt do earlier because I was driving you). set up consequences that are logical and related and dont be afraid of her. that's her taking power in an inappropriate way.
if you ask a kid what they want from you, they will usually say attention because its most obvious. but that doesnt mean that they are right, kids often dont know what they need from us, only that they need, and hence the misbehavior. that she says its 'the other kids getting more attention' leads me to believe that she's actually getting enough, but is resentful of her siblings growing independence and power.
and it sounds like you are actually a very good mom. she feels safe telling you exactly how she feels and she expects you to help her feel better. she would only feel that way if she thought you cared enough and that you are capable. so she's giving you an 'A'!
dont get down on yourself just because you've got a kid in a stage. right now I'm dealing with a borderline stage three, which I assure you, is no fun. but I refuse to take blame for it. I'm trying my best to work with what I have, the results are not within your power, only what you choose to work with is within your control. you do what you can and pray for the rest.

L25

Tue, Jan 14 2014, 2:27 pm

As granolamom said- the fact that she feels comfortable expressing her emotions to you means that you are doing a great job!!!! don't feel like the "worst.mom.ever", just the opposite! A therapist once told me that if a kid feels comfortable expressing anger at you that means your doing a good job. Some kids are too scared of their parents to express themselves or don't trust their parents to do anything so why bother. The fact that she is able to express herself is probably also thanks to you giving her a safe environment and helping her be in touch with her feelings even if they are negative. I also agree that I think your child needs "power". I was actually just listening to that class in the car today Smile

. May be combined with attention but I don't think attention alone is going to do the trick. Dina also said that age 4 is a maturation period for many/most kids so it is completely normal for a kid to go through some form of stage at the time period, couple it with your child's personality- she described it as smart, sensitive inside but tough on the outside, very capable and independent and I don't remember the other things but sounds like it fits your daughter.
I agree with Hashem yaazor about giving more jobs, independence and then coupling with praise.

AlwaysGrateful

Tue, Jan 14 2014, 2:47 pm

I listened to Dina's classes, and I'm not going to add to the posters above me. Jobs, responsibilities, praise.

What I am going to say is that THIS IS NORMAL. You are not a bad mommy. It's funny, when my oldest went through the terrible twos I thought it was horrific and I was doing something wrong. When my second went through them I thought it was annoying...but I knew he'd grow out of it. Now that my third is approaching the terrible twos and has already started tantrumming, it's much easier to take it all in stride. Why? Because now I know it's really a NORMAL stage, one that will pass. And it won't change TODAY based on how I react right now. It will change eventually, and I need to stay calm and positive until it does.

My oldest (a ds) is going through a really hard time right now. He's 5.5. A REAL stage 2. Heavy duty, like yours. Except he expresses it slightly differently -- by hitting, hurting, saying nasty things to his little brother. Disobeying intentionally. All that.

So I keep on trying to remind myself that it's NOT ME. I'm a good mother. I'm struggling to react correctly, trying to keep things positive, and my efforts are mostly positive (I.e, I don't lose my temper/patience, at least outwardly, too much). I can only control my efforts, not the results. It will take time for ds to work through this, and it will take time for your dd too. But you know what? You need to talk with other mothers of 4 and 5 year olds. THIS IS NORMAL. You're doing great. Just don't lose your patience with her, don't let her breach without reacting appropriately, and even if she says every single thing to push your buttons, keep on doing what you know is right.

Signed,
In the Same Boat

5*Mom

Tue, Jan 14 2014, 3:42 pm

I have never taken Dina Friedman's course so if this doesn't speak to you, feel free to skip right over.

First, I will echo the posters above who pointed out that age 4 is commonly a challenging age, sometimes even more so than 2.

Next, I am wondering if your dd sees herself primarily in relation to the younger children (you are a big sister, you can help them, you can teach them by your example...) and now that they are growing and gaining independence, she is unsure of who she is and what she is worth. Maybe pay attention to how often you give her feedback--either directly or indirectly in ways that she may overhear--about how/who she is in relation to your younger children and see if you can increase positive feedback about your daughter as an independent and worthy individual in her own right.

amother

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 10:39 pm

Op here. Sorry for the late response. I wanted to reply earlier, I didn't mean to post and run. Thanks for taking your time to reply.

Thanks for the ideas an encouragement. Just sharing the situation made it lighter on me. I must say though that I am physically stressed and emotionally drained. At least someone out of the family understands me, the extended family is throwing awful comments ..

Today was better, possibly starting to see a light. I know it will take time to get over it and that's the hardest part.. I feel rude saying this but seriously I'm starting to lose my patients.
My main problem is when I get lost, while she acts up, I don't want to lose the point and yell but I'm stuck with what I should/can do at the moment, kwim???

I told DD that we will be going out weekly now instead of monthly. She was so excited but oh my my my did she act out. We passed a shoe store and she sat into a huge pile of snow. "I want new shoes so I'm ruining it with snow". She has brand new 3 week old shoes... Then in the store we were in for an errand she randomly knocked things off shelves. She put them all back but ever so slowly she made my blood boil. What should I tell ya? I am stretched thin, this is such a nisayen for me. Sad

I can't wait for tomorrow, I get 2 hours for myself so I'm hoping to listen to the stage 2 work thru lesson. Dh and I will review it from the hand book over Shabes and see how to make it work. I so hope there is a right derech for us..

Thanks for listening!

amother

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 11:00 pm

5*Mom wrote:

Op here.
You mention a good point. But no. We do not address her that way. We will sometimes use her age appropriately. As in, you are 4 already and we think 4 year olds can take there negel vasser to the assigned place alone.
Every night I tell her a cute story about herself, "once a few years ago you were the baby. You had a chance to start sitting / walking and now you are already 4 and you get to do things 4 year olds do. Now it's the babies chance to start walking but the baby isn't as lucky as you because babies only have slippers. You have shoes, slippers, crocs AND boots. " the topic is usually around a thing either what the younger sibling was able to do (that she did at that age) or around something the baby did, that she did when she was a baby too.
She quite clearly knows that she is the oldest and gets to experience everything first. But she is not made responsible to be her siblings role model. When I said that she helps, it's because she offers. (Remember, She likes authority and in her little mind, giving from herself is power) she wants to, and it's presented here as a game/fun.

Thank you for your reply Smile

5*Mom

Fri, Jan 17 2014, 3:10 am

amother wrote:

These are actually great examples of what I was referring to. You are pointing out what she has/can do in relation to the other children, I.e. 'The baby has x, but don't worry because you have x, y, and z.' 'You get to do everything first.' This is a perfect setup for competition and every time the younger children get something or do something, she will be nervous that they are catching up to her and she will be displaced. Better to emphasize that everyone starts out small and slowly grows and learns new things and soon the younger children will be bigger and able to do the thing she can do now, and they will be able to do more things together. Everyone gets what they need when they need it; when she was a baby, she only had slippers but as she grew older she got shoes, crocs and boots and as the baby grows he/she will also get those things. Do not emphasize what she has/gets/can do in relation to what the other children have/get/can do.

amother

Fri, Jan 17 2014, 10:00 am

5*Mom wrote:

Op here. yes, you said what I meant. I have a hard time expressing myself.

granolamom

Fri, Jan 17 2014, 1:41 pm

amother wrote:

Your description is classic stage two, not stage one. Giving her more attention is not going to help, it's like giving an antibiotic for a viral infection. The stage two work through should be helpful, I don't remember at what point Dina talks about consequences...did you get that yet? Before you can work any program you really need to have consequences ready so you don't get to the point of frustration you describe. If you already know what you will do when she misbehaves, it doesn't knock you off course when she does because you're ready with a good response.

amother

Sun, Jan 26 2014, 10:16 am

5*Mom wrote:

New amother here. This looks like an interesting example but I'm confused by the difference you mention. I'm reading the same? 5*mom would you explain this better to me? Thanks

Op how is it going on your end? Any improvement?