When ADULT children go off the derech.

amother

Sun, Jun 08 2014, 5:07 pm

It was a complete shock to everyone--both family and friends. Our "child" was raised in a frum home, went to frum schools (some of the best) and seemed fully committed to marry and raise a similar, if not more right-wing family. What can you do when your child is already a young adult, has moved out of the house, and is slipping further and further away from being observant and even from yiddishkeit in general? And, how do you handle the pain and heartbreak? Family is trying to stay strong enough to keep the door open for return, but unfortunately almost all old friendships have been severed, either by choice or because they just can't accept the changes. Any mothers out there with adult children who can advise?

amother

Sun, Jun 08 2014, 5:27 pm

Chocolate mousse, I don't see how that post is helpful to the OP.

OP, my sympathy is with you. All I can advise is to daven for this child and still shower him/her with love and continue to invite them over often. I'll share with you a story that gave me a lot of chizzuk.
I once was by this family in in EY for Shabbos. This family looked charedi but two of their older sons (in their early-mid 20s) looked more "modern" - wearing jeans, a small kippa, etc. I didn't think much of it. That same day, I saw a woman I knew who saw that I was staying by this family. She said "get a bracha from that mother. She is a tzadekes beyond belief." Then she continued to tell me that these two boys went completely OTD. This mother wouldn't stop at anything - she davened, she organized Tehillim, she cried and pleaded, she took on new mitzvos, and these boys came back on the derech. This woman told me don't judge! They weren't keeping Shabbos before, were living with girls, etc. and now they are shomer Shabbos, kashrus, one is engaged to a frum girl from a good family, etc.

Wishing you only smachos, and may all of your children be on the correct derech and give you unlimited nachas.

amother

Sun, Jun 08 2014, 5:32 pm

Accept her unconditionally. Dont ask her to be a certain way especially in your house, it needs to be a safe haven for her.

Don't worry about what the neighbors think, its none of their business.

If someone stops being your friend because of her then they were not a real friend to begin with so you are better off without these judgemental people in your life.

Just let her be herself.

Pretend that you dont notice anything different about her.

Call Rabbi Horowitz and see of there is a support group that you can join to help you deal with your own emotions about it.

Just remember that she is still your child regardless if she is religious or not and you can love her and accept her even if she doesnt choose to live your lifestyle.

TwinsMommy

Sun, Jun 08 2014, 7:58 pm

My going "off the derech" the other way (becoming frum-- I was raised Reform) is one of the reasons I have no relationship with my family today. There was abuse involved too, but they can't stand that I embraced Yiddishkeit. I invited them to my Orthodox wedding but they didn't come.

I don't have to agree with the choices my children make for them to remain my children and for me to love them unconditionally. I think there is a lot a frum family can do to make their children feel welcome in their home-- whether the adult children are frum or not.

chaos

Sun, Jun 08 2014, 8:13 pm

Totally agree with the previous posters in that it's important to keep loving unconditionally and keep the relationship and lines of communication open.

Off The Derech by Faranak Margolese offers particularly good insight into why observant Jews leave and what the response should be. There's a focus on children/teens, but it's applicable to adults as well. I actually think everyone in the Jewish community - parents, Rabbis, teachers, etc - should read this book. You might find it a good read. http://www.offthederech.com/

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Jun 08 2014, 8:35 pm

It could work out.

In time she may marry another searching type from similar background, and be JPF (just plain frum). Life is long.

Yes, absolutely, stay somehow in touch, in a kind way.

The rules of discretion and kindness still bind her as much as anybody else, so she must be discreet about her personal wanderings and journeys.

Make sure she has money for nice clothes, makeup, all that stuff. Give her lots of gift certificates to nice stores.

Meet her for lunch at kosher places outside the community, in the business areas, and find out how she is doing. Just listen.

gold21

Sun, Jun 08 2014, 9:17 pm

How old is this child? As I understand it, she/he is not married? Maybe she/he is just really sick and tired of the yeshivish dating system?

(I.e. Yuh, I'm veerry yeshivish, I plan to learn ad mean v'esrim shanah, but anyway so I need a girl who's father has a lot of money, who wears a full face of makeup daily, who's grandma doesn't push a bubby cart..... Etc)

The shidduch system really burns people out. But this is just a totally random guess. I honestly have no clue. I have no clue how old your child is altogether....

Just know you're not alone, that people have gone through this situation before you, and you just need to find the right pieces of advice to guide you through this.

And just act totally normal with this child.... His/her religiousness or lack thereof should not define your relationship with him/her.

Good luck!!

amother

Sun, Jun 08 2014, 11:35 pm

WOW! So many of you responded so quickly and thoughtfully. I am very grateful.

The main thread throughout was unconditional acceptance and davening. Believe me, I've certainly tried both and will continue. I DO need help dealing with my emotions though, as it's really gnawing at me and I've begun to feel hopeless and depressed. I feel I won't live to see the turnaround -- if there is one (I will keep the chizuk story in mind, though--I'm sure it will help.)

As one poster wisely noted, I also make sure to send money for kosher food and health care.
Although I've made a point of not "supporting" the lifestyle I have also 'saved the day' a few times with rent money that was seriously in arrears. These were my ways of showing caring and maintaining connection.

Ironically, that's where I feel hopeless and helpless...I seem to be doing many things right, but the slide continues.

I try to maintain lighthearted conversation during the occasional phone calls and rare brief visits. Just finding harder and harder every time I become aware of a new decline in observance.The unconditional acceptance is becoming more difficult each time we meet and I must learn a more effective way of dealing with it.

To the poster who mentioned Rabbi Horowitz...do you know how I can reach him? I'm not much of a group therapy person, but perhaps he would be able to recommend a therapist who has experience in this field. Would appreciate any lead you can give me.

Thanks, again, to all for your advice. It certainly helps a lot to know that people understand and care.

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Jun 08 2014, 11:51 pm

There seem to be TWO things going on here.

Lessening observance AND an inability to pay her own rent.

That's not the same issue at all, OP.

Secular people have to be responsible, with working and bills.

Please speak to a Rav.

The kid first needs to be FUNCTIONAL.

That is NOT a religious issue.

You need help here from a professional. You haven't analyzed what's going on or at least not out loud on this thread.

It DOES take a while for some to get the rhythm of adult life going, working, tidying, showing up, getting to bed on time so you can do it again tomorrow, paying bills, keeping a bank account going in a way that doesn't make the bank close the account and refuse to open another one. Which other banks may not, either, if there are unpaid overdrafts or too much check bouncing.

This stuff does need to be taught and learned. You need coaching on the right mixture of friendliness and get with the program already, darnit- ness.

Teach.

But you do no favors to just endlessly indulge. So keep the teaching going until they get it. Then be pleased. And follow up.

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Jun 08 2014, 11:59 pm

People in a sinking ship are looking for life boats. They are not davening.

That's what's going on here.

Don't expect davening when the whole front of the ship is underwater, the deck is slanted at a forty five degree angle, and there are fins in the water. There are too many tangible, visible, problems for the person to calmly say a brocha over breakfast. The coffee slid off the table into the sea anyway.

Adjust your perspective to how it looks to the other person.

Your notions may seem strange, uncomprehending, and useless to her.

They are.

amother

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 12:09 am

We'll I am in your shoes, twice, both my sons are wonderful well mannered thinking young men, who have decided that they don't want to keep Shabbat and kashrut anymore. One of them from an intellectual standpoint , ie if we were able to change from one day chag to two days because in the olden days we did not know when the actual day of yom tov is, why now can't we change back because we know the correct days by other means.
The other son it is more of an emotional connection to shul davening and yiddishkeit. Both of them are very proud Jews will only marry jewish girls and are respectful at home.
But I cry, and I daven that hashem should show them the path back to bring a Shomer Shabbat and Shomer kashrut person.
The pain is there as I contemplate what the future generations will look like.

DrMom

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 12:58 am

amother wrote:

There's something to be said for this. But that shouldn't preclude keeping shabbat and kashrut. He can move to E"Y and keep 1 day chag. Smile

I do agree that there are major issues with our inability to amend certain aspects of halacha based on new knowledge. The whole kitniyot thing is ridiculous, for example, and most rabbanim with whom I have spoken acknowledge this, yet claim there is nothing that can be done to amend the situation. That certainly seems like an indicator of a broken legal system. I can see how someone would get fed up and say, "It's ridiculous to allow myself to be governed by a broken system. I want out."

Anyhow, your sons are menches. They are polite, respectful. Treasure what you have.

DrMom

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 1:03 am

amother wrote:

OP, is your child working and supporting himself/herself?
For how long has he/she been out of the house? How old is s/he?
Has s/he ever confided in you as to why s/he made such a radical lifestyle change?

amother

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 2:49 pm

OP here.
I agree that I need to find professional help, both to manage my own emotional response and also to figure out IF I can have any positive impact anymore.

My child is too "old" to listen to my teaching and seems to feel that anything that I say that is not in total agreement, is judgmental and critical. Notice that I used the word "old" chronologically -- there is definitely a lack of maturity.

Am not told much about comings and goings & have no idea where or when or with whom (s)he hangs out. Do know that (s)he left professional work (for which we paid advanced degree tuition) to do some low-class job just to survive. Sad all around.

To answer your question...I truly hope my child is still a mentch but the poor lifestyle choices make me question how long even the non-religious values we imbued will stick. Given limited contact with family and severed relationships with long-time friends, the only influences are out there on the street. Couple that with low-level job & its environment, poverty level living arrangements, denial almost entirely of previous lifestyle or even Jewishness...well, you get the picture of why I am so concerned.

Lately I wonder what, if anything, can ever influence a return, although even on a sinking ship we have to keep davening -- and always remember to tell those close to us that we love them. Right now, that's all I know to do.

Again, I ask anyone of you, if you know of a Rav or therapist who specializes in this type of situation, maybe in addition to family dynamics, I would be indebted to you for posting any names & phone numbers I can follow up.

Thanks so much for your insights.

DrMom

Mon, Jun 09 2014, 8:34 pm

amother wrote:

What you describe is radical lifestyle changes beyond religious changes. Her entire life is in self-imposed upheaval.

I'd not harp on the religious observance aspect at this time. There's something bigger going on here. Does she suffer from depression or other issues? Have you had an open discussion with her about all the lifestyle changes she's made recently? It sounds like a complete rejection of her past, in any way, shape, or form.

amother

Wed, Jun 11 2014, 3:26 pm

Op here.

Dr.Mom: Sadly, you make a valid point. There IS overall rejection of lifestyle, not only religion. I do think there is some depression, but more than that history of anxiety & panic attacks. Years ago, when they were serious enough for me to become very alarmed, I paid thousands for therapist who specializes in this. Unfortunately, at the time the best person I could find was not frum, but was recommended as sensitive & experienced with the frum community. In the back of my mind for the past few years, as all this was coming down, was that the therapist somehow encouraged "changes" and my child carried it to the extreme. On the positive side, it was stabilizing & seems to have relieved the symptoms and the ability to deal with any recurrence. In a way, I am happy that my child is in a better place psychologically, if not otherwise.

I definitely have charata over my choice of therapist, but it was an emergency situation and my child really didn't want a frum therapist, thinking they are too judgmental.
(BTW I believe this is a fallacy in our community in general. If people were more accepting of other's differences & problems they could help more effectively, and perhaps prevent so many of our young people from going off the derech to begin with...but that's for a different forum.)

My child does not wish to go into any meaningful discussion with me about current choices, and I haven't forced the topic. I would not be opposed to additional therapy (different therapist!) and would pay for it -- although that's not ideal -- as I know full well there is no way my child could afford it, even if amenable. Having said that, I'm a bit "therapist-shy" since the last experience--who knows what the next one could encourage?

That's why I was asking for referrals to Rav or frum organization that might be a resource. Thank you to the poster who left me that information.

I am taking seriously Dr. Mom's suggestion that I try to deal with the global issue of what's happening rather than focus on the religious factor right now. Thank you for the input -- although it's tough for me to do, it does make sense.

Meantime, B"H there is still some communication between us & I try not to confront in any way lest that "opening" disappear. There is a lot of defensiveness whenever I mention lifestyle choices, so I tread carefully. Am learning to lower my expectations and for now just keep the door open.

Again, thanks to all for responding.