I don't believe in "praise the action not the child"

Sadie

Thu, Mar 03 2016, 11:49 am

m in Israel wrote:

This particular concept (telling a kid they are "smart" when they get a good grade) is particularly harmful -- google "Carol Dweck" and "7th grade slump".

But even without exposure to the research, I wonder why you would prefer to hear "Wow! I'm so proud of how smart you are!" Rather than "Wow! I'm so proud that you aced this test!" (or even better "Wow! I'm so proud you aced this test! It looks like all your hard work is really paying off!")

I've heard of all the reasons not to praise smarts, I'm just saying that tactic didn't work on me as a kid. I wanted to feel that my parents thought I was smart, talented, beautiful, and special. I'm not saying those are the only things to praise, just that when my parents deliberately tried to avoid praising essential qualities as a parenting tactic I noticed it and resented it.

m in Israel

Thu, Mar 03 2016, 12:05 pm

Sadie wrote:

This has nothing to do with "parenting tactics". Carol Dweck's work is not about "reasons not to praise smarts" -- it's research about different views of how intelligence develops (the incremental theory vs. the entity theory) and how an individual's perception of how intelligence works is linked to their success in life. I really suggest that anyone who is involved with either raising kids or teaching kids really read her work.

What kind of things did your parents say that made you feel like they were using a "parenting tactic"? I really don't get how "good work! you aced the test!" or "you really sang beautifully in the production!" or "that writing assignment was so creative" or "I loved watching how you helped your sister with that puzzle" or "I love the way you did your hair" feels like "avoiding praising essential qualities".

Sadie

Thu, Mar 03 2016, 12:10 pm

m in Israel wrote:

Yes I am aware of the research and of course choosing how to praise your child based on research is a parenting tactic.

I'm speaking from the perspective of a child, not a parent or educator. I'm remembering how I felt at the time. I was aware that saying "I love the way you did your hair" was sometimes a conscious decision to avoid saying "you look beautiful" and I did not like it.

m in Israel

Thu, Mar 03 2016, 12:11 pm

amother wrote:

Because then you're really saying "you're not smart. I'm so proud that you surprised me and got a good grade even though you're not actually smart." I'd rather hear "wow you're so smart! You do so well when you put in the proper effort. Im so proud of how diligent you are even though I'm sure it's a sacrifice to not be able to play during that time"

I don't get this at all. If you sound surprised when you give a compliment, it makes no difference if the message is "I'm surprised that you did well despite not being smart" or "I'm surprised that you are smarter than I thought you were". Obviously you should not be expressing surprise at your child's achievements. But that has nothing to do with my point.

If you take your second statement and leave out the first sentence ("wow you're so smart!") but simply stuck with "you do so well when you put in the proper effort. I'm so proud of how diligent you are. . ." you are doing exactly what the experts advise -- connecting the results to factors that are within his control (his effort and diligence).

I've been advising a lot of googling on this thread, which actually isn't very much like me Very Happy

But there is so much fascinating ACTUAL research on this subject. It's definitely worth googling "attribution theory" to see how internalizing one message or the other (I succeeded because I am smart vs. I succeeded because I worked hard) impacts long term success in life.

amother

Natural

Thu, Mar 03 2016, 12:15 pm

m in Israel wrote:

Because all those things feel Iike you're saying "you're not so great but you did well despite that it's not inherently you"

LiLIsraeli

Thu, Mar 03 2016, 12:23 pm

I actually read a study recently where children who were praised for their qualities when they acted selflessly ("Look at you! Such a caring child!") internalized it much more than children whose actions were praised ("I like how you shared your toys with him.") and at the end of the study period, the first group of children were more likely to believe they were caring people and to behave in a caring manner.

In my own personal opinion, I agree with the OP. Kids need to know that their mother believes in them and thinks they are great and caring and kind and intelligent and sensitive or whatever. Not just that their actions are good but that they as people are good. When they make a mistake, we want them to believe that they are a good person who just made a mistake and not a bad person or stupid or not good at things.

I'll try to find the study again, it was about a year ago so I don't remember where I saw it.

amother

Indigo

Thu, Mar 03 2016, 12:29 pm

Faigy86 wrote:

I do they they should be separate though. When I tell my child that they are good, wonderful, special, whatever, I don't also tell them that it is because of something they did. Children (people) are good because Hashem created them and they have a purpose in this world. My daughter/son is not good because he/she did a mitzva, showed good middos etc.

Praise the child to heaven, but don't always link it to the action.

Praise the actions separately.

This.

I related very much to the chapter in How to Speak so Kids Will Listen, where they discuss why you should still praise kids' actions, even in the positive, and not the person.

There's the concern that if the child is labeled as "good", (or "calm", "never gets angry") he will be afraid of losing his parents' esteem if he acts outside of that box.

To this day, I feel a slight twinge of jealousy if I see my 16 year old niece yell at her mother. True, it's chutzpah, but overall she's a great kid.

She's yelling because she knows that her mother's love, and view of her as an overall great kid, will not change even though she lost her temper.

Children should have that freedom, and security.

amother

Natural

Thu, Mar 03 2016, 12:51 pm

m in Israel wrote:

Tone of voice doesn't matter. If the parent doesn't say that their child is smart then the child doesn't believe that the parent believes that they are smart.

I want my parents to praise my capabilities, my talents and my positive traits.

I don't care what the experts say. There are plenty of experts who say the opposite. Besides if I'm talking about what I want to hear, it doesn't matter what someone else thinks I should want to hear.

Sometimes you hear advice and you think 'wow this is so ingenious I will definitely try to implement it' and sometimes you hear advice and you think 'this information is heading straight for the trash.' This suggestion to praise the action and not the child falls into the latter category.

imasinger

Thu, Mar 03 2016, 1:20 pm

amother wrote:

Maybe it depends in large part on how terms are defined. Does a child think that "good" means someone who never yells when angry? That's not healthy.

But if "good" is more nuanced, so that at times it means being flexible or giving, and at other times it means standing firm for what is clearly right, then I think children internalize a very important message when their parents tell them that they are good. It means that even on bad days, their inner definition is not invalidated.

For most of the world, nobody's compliments matter as much as a parent's. And often, their criticism can be the most significant as well. But AFFECT matters even more.

Arbitrarily limiting forms of praise can be stifling to the natural enthusiasm in the moment. I believe that parents should praise the action AND the person, and not be afraid of doing either, unless they see that the child is not growing in the right direction. (And then, they should get expert help in figuring out what wen wrong.) More important than the wording is he genuine enthusiasm and love.

With all due respect to Carol Dweck, the problem I have with saying "I can see that you really are working on this middah" is that it sounds too cold. Better, IMO, to err on the side of describing the child as possessing that quality, and reinforcing every effort with applause.

Of course, if one can do both, and say, "That showed such self control! I'm super proud of how wonderfully you did that!", fine and dandy.

But I lose no sleep over throwng into the mix, "you are the best, and I love you!"

I believe sometimes things are taken too far.

sleepybeauty

Thu, Mar 03 2016, 2:17 pm

It's so funny, I was just thinking about this yesterday and wondering if I should start a thread here.
I remember learning that instead of praising a child, "wow, what a beautiful picture, you are such an artist" you should say, "you used a lot of colors in your picture." This bothered me a lot. As a child (and even now) I didn't want someone to describe what I did, I know what I did. I wanted to hear "you're beautiful, smart, artistic...." My parents have always heaped tons of praise on me and I think I turned out just fine. Praising an action is a huge step up from just describing the action, but it feels even better IMO to be personally praised.
For example, when I make a meal on Shabbos and someone says:
1. "You made meat and chicken and potatoes... "(Does absolutely nothing for me)
2. "The food you made was delicious" (makes me feel good)
3. "You are an amazing cook" (makes me feel the best-does not cause me to be afraid of failing in the future and letting them down)

Last edited by sleepybeauty on Thu, Mar 03 2016, 2:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Cerulean

Thu, Mar 03 2016, 3:46 pm

Not entirely sure what to think here. I don't think all qualities are similar. I heard from my parents that I was pretty, or at least once "a sight for sore eyes", and I think I have a decent body image partly as a result. On the other hand, I heard so much from them, and maybe more importantly from almost every adult I came into contact with, how smart I was. You know what happened? (deleted more personal info) I never learned how to put effort into schoolwork, so once it was difficult and not fun, I didn't do homework, or I got it done late and poorly. Guess who never managed to finish a bachelor's degree? I bet most of the girls I went to elementary/middle school with wouldn't, unless they figure out who I am from this post.

Maybe it's teachers and adults who aren't the parents who shouldn't call children smart. And even if it's ok for the parents to say it occasionally, it had better be balanced out by a whole lot of "good for you- you worked so hard on this!" M in Israel is completely right.

sleepybeauty

Thu, Mar 03 2016, 9:40 pm

amother wrote:

On the other hand, I heard so much from them, and maybe more importantly from almost every adult I came into contact with, how smart I was. You know what happened? (deleted more personal info) I never learned how to put effort into schoolwork, so once it was difficult and not fun, I didn't do homework, or I got it done late and poorly. Guess who never managed to finish a bachelor's degree?

I can't say I agree. Nobody enjoys working hard, I'm sure there are plenty of people who were not praised for being smart that don't have the motivation either. I don't think it's fair to blame other people for our laziness. I do agree with the importance of teaching our children that putting in effort pays off, but that won't stop me from telling my children how smart they are.

Thu, Mar 03 2016, 9:53 pm

amother wrote:

Yes, this is a common story, if perhaps an extreme case. I have lived it myself, seen it around me and more recently have read about it as the "praise movement" comes full circle.

The smart kid is supposed to learn effortlessly. If a student needs to try hard, clearly s/he isn't so smart after all, and is vulnerable to mocking from other kids (yes, really) and self-doubt, the severity of which will depend on the degree to which innate intelligence has been ingrained as a child's identity.

It helps to make sure kids with academic strengths are properly challenged and stimulated in early grades, before learning to coast through school. They need to have the opportunity to succeed at something requiring effort, and the chance to feel proud of their accomplishments.