Is it possible a child has a low IQ?

amother

Slategray

Wed, Jul 06 2016, 10:06 am

imasinger wrote:

I was with you until the bolded, which was like a bucket of ice water.

Yes, everyone has natural talents. Yes, people are all different.

But it is not true that we are therefore lmited. There are tons of stories about people whose determination to succeed led to success. The brain is elastic. It can change, where your height cannot. As more than one person on this thread has pointed out, neural pathways can develop, given proper training.

Maybe not every child is the MOST brilliant, but every child is smart at some things. Or could be, with proper support.

Part of appreciating children is not short-changing their potential. Too many times, families pigeonhole their kids. This one is the responsible one, this on is the smart one, this one is the social one, this one is the athlete.

Such thinkng is detrimental. We can recognize strengths without defining people by them, or limiting them.

I think we mostly agree. We need broader definitions of wonderful, because all kids can be wonderful. I don't think it would be kind or helpful if people kept telling me I have the potential to succeed as an athlete. I have bad hand eye coordination, and I'm not talented. I can enjoy physical activity, and kids like me should be encouraged to use our bodies, rather than being chosen last in gym class. But if I wanted a winning basketball team, I wouldn't choose me, either. Why can't we be honest with ourselves?

If anything, telling the class klutz that she too can expect to excel in gym devalues the real accomplishments of the class athletes.

Determination is great and I agree that we should set the bar as high as each child can go. We agree that all the bars cannot be the same height. We can't predict how an individual child will do, but we can know for sure that some will always do better than others. And telling a child that he can excel if only he wants it enough, when his desire outstrips his ability, is downright cruel.

Again, I think we have made great strides and should keep investing in education. That doesn't mean that all our children will be above average.

MitzadSheini

Thu, Jul 07 2016, 2:46 am

amother wrote:

I think we mostly agree. We need broader definitions of wonderful......

If anything, telling the class klutz that she too can expect to excel in gym devalues the real accomplishments of the class athletes......

Yes to a broader definition of wonderful.

No to your implied definition of 'real accomplishment '.

Tell the class klutz,(that was me btw) the exceeding her personal best is every bit as valuable as a better athlete exceeding their pb. (never said to anyone in those days). Same with someone who does better than last week at spelling, math or whatever. Same for the special needs kid who this time asked for a drink instead of screaming, grabbing the jug as pouring it all over the floor as he usually does.

Hashem made us all different. I believe that He does not judge us by comparing us to someone who is made differently, but rather by where we are in comparison to ourselves.

We should do the same with each other. (or better yet not judge at all except favourably)

Last edited by MitzadSheini on Thu, Jul 07 2016, 2:49 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Slategray

Thu, Jul 07 2016, 2:49 am

mtzadhasheini wrote:

Yes to a broader definition of wonderful.

No to your implied definition of 'real accomplishment '.

Tell the class klutz,(that was me btw) the exceeding her personal best is every bit as valuable as a better athlete exceeding their pb. (never said to anyone in those days). Same with someone who does better than last week at spelling, math or whatever. Same for the special needs kid who this time asked for a drink instead of screaming, grabbing the jug as pouring it all over the floor as he usually does.

Hashem made us all different. I believe that He does not judge us by comparing us to someone who is made differently, but rather by where m we are. In comparison to ourselves.

We should do the same with each other. (or better yet not judge at all except favourably)

Doing better than you did last week is improvement, not excellence.

amother

Slategray

Thu, Jul 07 2016, 2:57 am

mtzadhasheini wrote:

Accepted. But then I say that improvement is more valuable that excellence. Very often (not always) excellence is a gift from Hashem, for which He, not the person, should be praised

(edited for typos)

Agreed. Only I want my surgery performed by the doctor blessed by Hashem with talent, not the "most improved" doctor who graduated at the bottom of the class.

amother

Slategray

Thu, Jul 07 2016, 3:28 am

Well said.

We both admit that there are innate abilities and some of them cannot be achieved no matter how much effort a person expends. Going back to the class klutz - recognize that she has talents in other areas, encourage her to improve in gym, but don't pretend she's headed for the Olympics. Because not everyone is an athlete. And not everyone is a scholar, and not everyone is an artist, and so on. But everyone is valuable and worthy of love.

When we tell children that effort will get them everything they want, we are lying to them. Effort gets us beyond our self-imposed boundaries, but not beyond the boundaries imposed by Hashem. The problem is in knowing the difference between the two. We cannot pretend that Hashem sets no limits. Our job is to find out where they lie.

MitzadSheini

Thu, Jul 07 2016, 3:39 am

Well I think that was well said. And I agree with everything EXCEPT the last two sentences. Hashem is very big. If you throw yourself on Him you can go beyond yourself. I would not be concentrating on limits either. Because you don't know what they are until you.... Well I was going to say get there. But that's not right. You don't find out until you ....well... die, I guess. But then you're dead.... So maybe you never find out....

But as was said up thread.... What is really truly valuable is how well you serve Hashem, not how well you succeed in a certain field.

amother

Slategray

Thu, Jul 07 2016, 3:43 am

mtzadhasheini wrote:

Yes, let's push the limits and value children wherever those limits may be.

MitzadSheini

Thu, Jul 07 2016, 3:46 am

Also... Sometimes you just can't understand what someone is achieving. I've heard about this sort of thing before, but someone just sent me this

https://www.thestar.com/news/g......html

It's about a machine that converts very difficult to understand humming sounds of a person with cp to intelligible speech. 100 years ago such a person may have been 'written off' as dumb (in the traditional meaning of 'unable to speak ').

Laiya

Thu, Jul 07 2016, 9:09 pm

I just came across this article by the star of the show Shark Tank, Kevin O'Leary. He's a shrewd and successful businessman--and also dyslexic.
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06......html

Other posters have already named famous people who were dyslexic, but I think this article gets to the heart of OP's position.

1. He demonstrates the difference between "success" in school vs. success in the real world

2. He says that his disability is what caused him to become successful, because it forced him to think creatively; and

3. most relevant to the OP and I'm quoting it bec. he said it so well, "There is a lot of shame when children are told over and over they can't do something. These children rarely grow up to be success stories."

And I think that's the lesson here. If we don't see their potential, despite their specific academic difficulties, we won't relate to them as people who can succeed.....and then, they won't.

mille

Fri, Jul 08 2016, 9:11 am

marina wrote:

You're not being too honest. You're being too uneducated. Plenty of pple with dyslexia or processing disorders become professionals. They just learn to compensate.

I recently met a medical resident who has severe dyslexia. He always had a hard time reading so all his books were on tape. Except he learned to compensate and listens to audio at 4x the speed- it's incomprehensible to anyone else, but he hears and understands it just fine. He took the classes and exams and did well. And in real life he's a fine doctor.

Your husband's school might be doing a crappy job of educating the kids, but there's no reason to equate all disabilities with cognitive delay.

Didn't read the entire thread yet, but agree totally with this. I have dylsexia, I learned to compensate from a young age. I taught myself to read with a bookmark above and below each line so I'd see only one line at a time, when I was in 3rd grade. In college, I did as Marina mentioned and I'd record lectures and listen to the audio (on a higher speed but not 4x! wow!). My auditory processing speed is excellent, because it's a skill I have developed to compensate for what I am lacking. I work in a professional capacity now and was even going for a PhD at one point. I was in gifted programs in school and graduated college with a 4.0. So I'd say that I am not low IQ or display "symptoms" of low IQ simply because I have a processing disorder!

amother

Blue

Fri, Jul 08 2016, 12:01 pm

Laiya wrote:

op here....so people keep bringing up examples of dyslexic geniuses. Fine. But why does every kid have potential to learn? I am more talking about boys because I think in the long run it's their responsibility to earn a parnassah and support a family. And usually that involves some level of either academic ability or street savvy/smarts. I don't believe that EVERYBODY has one or the other. Some will end up in a position where hopefully they have a relative or family friend who will be kind enough to hand them a decent job with a decent salary that they would never earn on their ability alone because it would involve academics and schooling. If I'd say everybody who tries could become a singer or an athlete we'd all agree that most people inherently lack the ability to reach those goals. Why isn't it reasonable that some lack the ability to become doctors, lawyers, accountants or engineers?