Making a kid a "korbon"

Motek

Sun, Jun 24 2007, 4:46 pm

Sometimes, in order to instill fear into a class, a teacher will make one kid the korbon which means take a kid who isn't even a problem kid, but if he makes one little wrong move he (or she) pounces on him and punishes him severely to make him an example for the rest of the class who are supposed to think, "Oh my gosh! If Rebbi punished X, I'd better toe the line!"

Do you think this is proper chinuch?

Are there any Torah sources or precedents for doing this?

I think this might be done more with boys than with girls, is this so?

amother

Sun, Jun 24 2007, 5:26 pm

As a teacher, it is never right!

Sometimes, the student is asking for it- meaning one particular student repeatedly is misbehaving which is leading to disorder in the classroom, and you follow your procedures and this kid gets singled out- but all withing the system of warnings etc.- of course I talk to the child afterwards and have a discussion about what happened and make sure she understood that her behavior resulted in whatever the consequences were- and we discuss how she knew her behavior would result in whatever happened, and we talk about preventing it in the future. So although it looks like a korban- it is really just a result of one child particularly acting out.

Actually treating one child differently is wrong and unecessary if you have your classroom procedures set up properly.

I feel that keeping order with strict rules while teaching is necessary, but to balance that there need to be discussions with the individuals during down times- recess etc.

Blossom

Sun, Jun 24 2007, 6:02 pm

Quote:

which means take a kid who isn't even a problem kid

Such behavior towards a child can ch''v result in making the kid a "problem kid"

It is totally WRONG!!!!!

TzenaRena

Sun, Jun 24 2007, 6:17 pm

Motek wrote:

Are there any Torah sources or precedents for doing this?

it is stated frequently: v'chol yisrael yishme'u v'yira'u

boys more than girls? well, women have a precedent of "koh somar" and men are spoken to not as softly...

Not professing to know...

amother

Sun, Jun 24 2007, 6:21 pm

I taught in BR for one year, and what I experienced was that, I wasn't so much making a kid a korban, but when a normally good kid started acting up, I was inclined to be harder on her than on a regularly disruptive kid because I knew that she knew better and was able to control herself...

In this case, it might have looked like a korban, but wasn't...

Motek

Sun, Jun 24 2007, 6:48 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

it is stated frequently: v'chol yisrael yishme'u v'yira'u

in what context?

regarding picking on someone to make him the korbon? I don't think so

Lechatchila Ariber

Sun, Jun 24 2007, 7:16 pm

Motek wrote:

Sometimes, in order to instill fear into a class.....................Do you think this is proper chinuch?

I think if a teacher has to instill fear in a class in order to have control then there already you have a problem

mimivan

Sun, Jun 24 2007, 7:20 pm

I also taught at BR briefly and was told to be very very firm (was told specifically not to smile once until Chanukah or I would "lose" the class). I failed, which is why I'm not still teaching...but I can see why teachers feel they have to be tough in the extreme...it's a very challenging environment.

However, the most successful teacher there was a very soft spoken, gentle woman who established good relationships with each of her students. This woman has a gift... it is not easy.

chocolate moose

Sun, Jun 24 2007, 7:54 pm

I like a lot of dd's former teachers but I have a different relationship with them then she does . . . we had some of the same teachers, but at machon chana they were allowed to smile!

faigie

Sun, Jun 24 2007, 8:51 pm

I taught a lot of teeenagers over the years.............
NEVER EVER would I jump down the throat of a decent kid.........and yes id get tough on a kid who didnt behave.
..........just curious, morally, how could someone as a teacher, who a kid needs to trust, sleep at night knowing that they made a korban out of an innocent kid?
FYI, if that happened to one of my kids, id be down that teachers throat full throttle.
-as a teacher one needs to teach life skills. fairness, kindness , decency, achdut, and love.

Mitzvahmom

Sun, Jun 24 2007, 9:23 pm

I remember in kindergarten...they tried to make my daughter the "korbon" and constantly putting her in timeout... Basiclaly for her it was play time, she did not learn a thing

mumoo

Sun, Jun 24 2007, 9:42 pm

my ds? was the korbon for years

if ds was verbally provoked and retaliated physically, he was punished.
if ds was the target of another boy, ds was punished for provoking him

he couldn't win- and of course if he was provoked and didn't retaliate at all- there was no praise for him and the other boy wasn't ever punished

amother

Mon, Jun 25 2007, 12:24 am

When I was in elementary school it was like the school was out to get me. I wont deny the fact that I did misbehave but I wasnt the only one. I clearly remember when I was in 4th grade the principal used to distract me with something and then hit me. and this was a principal of a very well known bais yaakov school. I dont think its something that a principal has the right to do. since then it was like the principal would tell each teacher in the begining of the year that it was ok to use me as the "korbon" (at least thats wat it felt like to me) and the truth is it just made me hate the school and teachers more and misbehave even more. I dont know if the bais yaakov system changed must since then (this was about 10 years ago) but I doubt it.

TzenaRena

Mon, Jun 25 2007, 12:49 am

Motek wrote:

TzenaRena wrote:

it is stated frequently: v'chol yisrael yishme'u v'yira'u

in what context?

regarding picking on someone to make him the korbon? I don't think so

of course not. it's in the context of Beis Din administering any of the 4 deaths of B"D, in punishing someone who committed a cardinal sin, as seen by reliable witnesses, and after complete investigation.

Never someone innocent, or not proven guilty.

However, if someone was guilty, there is an important deterrent in his punishment, of "vchol ha'am yishme'u v'yira'u."

mimivan

Mon, Jun 25 2007, 12:55 am

faigie wrote:

Just out of curiosity, how would a parent really find out their kid was being used as a korban? I mean, it's the kid's word against the teachers isn't it? And how do we know 100% if the kid is being honest? I mean, I'd love to think my son is a tzaddik and doesn't ever lie, but ....

mumoo

Mon, Jun 25 2007, 2:44 am

of course there are two sides to every story... but we do know our children. I, at least, am well aware that ds, who I spoke about above, had a temper, was quick to offer opinions, was pretty cynical, etc. We had dozens of discssions about his behavior and also the kavod to the rebbe

But whether a rebbe was fair and supportive or whatever, the bottom line is if ds felt unfairly treated that was a problem

faigie

Mon, Jun 25 2007, 9:00 am

"Just out of curiosity, how would a parent really find out their kid was being used as a korban? I mean, it's the kid's word against the teachers isn't it? And how do we know 100% if the kid is being honest? I mean, I'd love to think my son is a tzaddik and doesn't ever lie, but "

know your kid, listen to your kid. also, teachers have reputations that travel with them. if you suspect foul play, call up the teacher, and ask whats going on. ask if the class is "bad", see what she answers you.
gotta tell you, with all the teens I taught, I never had a "bad" class. I had a few rambunctious kids, but even there, no one was bad.