When to have daughters wear only skirts?

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Oct 23 2016, 3:42 am

amother wrote:

It says in the parsha that girls shouldn't wear boys clothing and boys female clothing !

Huh? There are boys pants and there are girls pants, just like there are tailored slacks for women that men would not wear.

OP, I am living in a DL yishuv. We are plain MO. My daughter herself likes skirts more than pants, but I would allow her to wear pants until she herself didnt want to wear them anymore. In other words, we dont have a rule that pants are not allowed. If my daughter chooses to wear them, we say, go ahead. I have no problem with it. As long as they are not skin tight, thats all.

amother

Brown

Sun, Oct 23 2016, 6:40 am

Thanks for all the replies! It is interesting to see what everyone does.

To the amother who asked why we don't just do what our community does - we have a range here. Most of the girls in our neighborhood start wearing only skirts at either 3 years old or at 1st grade, though some wear pants until much older than that (age 9 or even until bat mitzvah). I grew up in a more modern environment where many of the adult women wore pants too and I only stopped wearing pants (and short sleeves) in highschool when I became more frum. So I'm at a bit of a loss to decide when I should have dd wear skirts only, and wanted to hear what others did and how/why.

amother

Aubergine

Sun, Oct 23 2016, 7:22 am

I posted upthread about my 8 year old daughter.

I grew up a little more modern than where I'm holding now. I wore pants until at least 9 years old and sleeves that just reached my elbow through high school. I switched to 3/4 sleeves for seminary and never looked back.

DH keeps hinting or outright suggesting that I should be stricter with DD's tznius. I keep telling him that she's going to have to cover up for most of her life and we should just let her be a child while we can. This year she is still allowed to wear short sleeves to school but next year she'll only be allowed to wear long sleeves. Why make her wear long sleeves now outside of school? I make sure she wears sleeves appropriate to the community when we go somewhere "frummer."

Part of this is that when I was a kid it was easy to find normal shirts in regular stores that reached to the elbows and we're not low cut or too tight or with inappropriate messages scrawled across the chest. These days most t-shirts meant for girls have cap sleeves or barely longer or have weird cutouts or look like they're meant for way older women. When I find something vaguely appropriate even with a sleeve that actually is present I don't stress so much over the last couple of inches. There's plenty if time for that in the next few years.

OP, I guess my point is that if you live in a mixed community and have options and your daughter won't be looked down upon for dressing any particular way, then figure out what's important to you and how you want to convey that to your daughter. Do you want her to view tznius as a burden or a privilege? Do you want to impose many stricter rules at once or phase them in gradually? And what does your daughter think about this? Has she noticed that different people dress differently? Maybe it's time for a conversation about tznius on her level. It should be the beginning of many such discussions as she grows.

amother

Magenta

Sun, Oct 23 2016, 7:42 am

I don't think that starting at a younger age makes them view tznius more as a burden.

If anything, dressing that way becomes more natural to them rather than a change to be made when they are older when they are already more clothes conscious and used to dressing a different way.

Everyone should do whatever is right for where they are holding though the way your daughters will view it depends how you convey it to them regardless of the age. If you make them feel special and priveleged to be dressing tznius then they will get a pride ingrained in them for dressing that way.

amother

Copper

Sun, Oct 23 2016, 7:52 am

amother wrote:

I think it depends. As a child I lived in a community where many people started doing the full tznius regimen at 3, whereas others started at 7 or a bit past that. My parents made me start wearing skirts, knee length socks and long sleeves at 3, and I remember that I was quite resentful that others could wear short sleeves and no socks while I had to. I usually don't remember things from that far back, but the resentment is one thing I still remember....

Chayalle

Sun, Oct 23 2016, 9:04 am

I started DD on no-pants in 4 year old playgroup, only because everyone else was not wearing them. She still wore leggings outfits outside of school, here and there, where the setting made sense. Otherwise, I would've waited till age 5. Our Rav told us to start with tznius according to school guidelines, and schools in Lakewood start at age 5.

OT but the skirts business has been a difficult one in my household, since my kids are very petite. My 8 year old DD is finally looking semi-normal in skirts. Up till now, I've tried my hardest to stick to jumpers and dresses.

amother

Coral

Sun, Oct 23 2016, 9:14 am

amother wrote:

It says in the parsha that girls shouldn't wear boys clothing and boys female clothing !

So it sounds like you would hold that a newborn still in the hospital must dress according to gender. I wonder what the reaction of the nurse was when you told her not to put any kind of pants on a 2 hour old baby girl. Only skirts.

Chayalle

Sun, Oct 23 2016, 9:18 am

amother wrote:

I think it depends alot on the child's personality and the community they are growing up in.

I have a close friend who is super-makpid on tznius with her kids, from a very young age. One of her daughters is more easy-going and seems to take it all in stride, with pride...and the other one very much resents it, and at a pretty young age (she's not 10 yet) she is acting out and angry.

There may be other factors at play here, I don't know....but just my observation that it's not so cut and dry.

nylon

Sun, Oct 23 2016, 2:34 pm

Most poskim don't base their decision on pants on beged ish, for the reasons people have already suggested. (In addition beged ish is a culturally dependent rationale--in other cultures, some type of pants is the normal dress for women, such as salwar kameez)

There are different opinions on when a child is obligated in tzniut, and exactly what the parameters of that are. You have to go by what your rav and your community hold.

syrima

Wed, Oct 26 2016, 10:32 am

We also live in a mixed community and are RW YU yeshivish. I grew up and only wore skirts exclusively after bas mitzvah, then started covering elbows and wearing knee socks later.
When our first DD was around 4 I also was not sure about this issue.
In the preschool where she was then, girls wore skirts or pants, I actually preferred the pants in the winter as I felt it kept her warmer!
When she started bais yaakov at age 5, she had to wear skirts, but no rules about knee socks or sleeves yet. Since she was wearing skirts in school we transitioned to that outside of school. Then in 1st grade she started wearing the uniform and knee socks. When summer came she continued wearing the knee socks - if she didn't want to I would not make her though. Also bought only longer sleeves at that point. With our second DD she wanted to only wear skirts earlier - like age 4 - because that was what her big sister did.
if we had sent to a more mo school maybe things would be different. In general I think you want DD to blend in with how other girls her age in her school are dressing. if you want her to dress differently then you might need to switch schools so it does not affect her socially.