Tznius in schools over time

Ruchel

Wed, Jun 27 2007, 2:12 pm

I was browsing through school pictures online, and indeed I noticed a change, including in tznius, overtime. But you know what? In a good sense!

Pictures of
–the Alliance Israelite Universelle, a Jewish school founded in 1860 that could be found in most French speaking countries and based on the French (Ashkenazic) model. It was not a school for “cases” or stuff like that. Many of today’s rabbanim or their parents studied there. It is considered Orthodox, and supported by the French Consistoire.
- Lucien de Hirsch school, Paris, opened in 1901, very machmir MO
Both had very similar "styles" for that reason.

Interesting: some classes are co ed. Some girls wear short skirts, short sleeves and opened collars, no tights no socks. Some teachers too. Female teacher for boys and male teachers for girls can be seen. Some teachers do not cover their hair. Some boys and teachers do not wear a kippa. Some boys wear shorts. In later pics (60’s and 70’s), some girls and teachers wear pants and shorts.

1934

1938

1945

Purim 1949

1953-1954

1964 the teachers

1966

1968-1969

1972-1973

1974

1975

1978

Can you imagine this 1964 school show taking place today??

Or that 1964 basket ball lesson being photographed and taking place with a boy around??

today Lucien de Hirsch enforces tznius after bas mitzvah and kippah (“no forgetting will be tolerated”) from the start (and obviously for teachers too!), but most parents go beyond according to pics I have seen (too bad I cannot find them).

for sports girls are to wear a “tznius sportswear” and a “large tee shirt”, no shorts allowed. From kindergarten on girls cannot go with free hair but a ponytail or bun or similar.

It is still co ed except for kodesh.

Motek

Wed, Jun 27 2007, 8:05 pm

Ruchel wrote:

–the Alliance Israelite Universelle, a Jewish school founded in 1860 that could be found in most French speaking countries and based on the French (Ashkenazic) model. It was not a school for “cases” or stuff like that. Many of today’s rabbanim or their parents studied there. It is considered Orthodox, and supported by the French Consistoire.

considered Orthodox? from what I remember reading, they brought down the level of Yiddishkeit in Morocco (and probably wherever they were located)

Ruchel

Thu, Jun 28 2007, 8:27 am

They "killed" local customs, I agree. For example the women who wore a scarf on their head started going like the Frenchwomen, with a hat (at best). I can also see the difference on my Greek family pictures.

But I checked on the Consistoire site, they are considered Orthodox and as such they receive help from them. In exchange they have to keep certain standards of frumkeit, and it is regularly checked. If they can check our small shul enough to make the community head stressed about how things are done, they will definitely check such big schools much more often. And they don't hesitate to declare a shul/school/restaurant un-Orthodox and then basically it lives on people who use it (=if not financed by rich people it dies).
That's how we keep "Liberal" (conservative) shuls under 10%.

Ruchel

Thu, Jun 28 2007, 9:10 am

I wonder if it is the case today?

The school was founded to fight assimilation and Jews converting to other religions... and from what I heard by people who attended, it was not the case.

Orthodox school means kashrus, shabbes, prayers, religion classes... but also ideology. Everything is checked thoroughly. Although I agree that today most people who send their children there are very modern and wouldn't be good for chareidim. But as long as it's Orthodox...

Motek

Fri, Aug 24 2007, 1:37 pm

I read more about it in an article about Morocco. It said that up until the mid-19th century, religious Jewish life in Morocco flourished. Jewish boys attended chadarim and Talmudei Torah. In the 1860's a threat appeared in the form of the Alliance Israelite Universelle that aimed to promote ideas of self-sufficiency through education to Jews around the world.

In 1862, an Alliance school opened in Tetuan. By the beginning of the 20th century, there were 27 of these schools in 15 Moroccan cities, reaching some 5000 Jewish students. The Alliance attempted to draw younsters away from the chadarim and was strongly opposed by the rabbonim.

Although children in these schools were given a Jewish education, they were not allowed to wear yarmulkes or cover their heads with berets. By the time Morocco became a French protectorate in 1912, the French culture was already all-pervasive. Newborn Jewish children were routinely given French names instead of Jewish ones.

After World War II the Otzar Ha'Torah network and Chabad network opened, and they provided an authentic Torah education.

Ruchel

Fri, Aug 24 2007, 1:53 pm

Quote:

The Alliance attempted to draw younsters away from the chadarim and was strongly opposed by the rabbonim.

Could it be, then, that it depended on the country?

I know for sure my great grand parents, uncles and aunts from Greece studied in these schools, and the family was very frum. The father was a gadol and had been selected to become Rishon Le zion before the war started (too late though).

As for French names, they bore Hebrew (males) or Judeo Spanish (females) names, but some had a secular name, indeed French.

I am aware though that in North Africa many families stopped giving traditional names to the girls at that period, but often they were the same who gave them Arabic names 1 generation before... Just like in 19th century Germany there were tons of girls with German or "modern" names (Jenny and the like).

Ruchel

Sat, Aug 25 2007, 5:10 pm

http://www.luciendehirsch.net/

Consistoire approved schools must stick to halacha (kippa for boys, skirts above 12 and tzanua clothing… although weirdly it didn’t seem to be the case at the time of the pics!), and Lucien de Hirsch is one of them. So they are ruled by a director mainstream French Orthodoxy approves of.

Given the “machmirization” these last 10 or so years, I am not surprised the standards have become MUCH stricter. Many frum organizations that allowed non tznius clothing, mixed dancing and swimming… have totally stopped it today. I went to some Jewish organizations that my mom used to go, and according to what she told me and what I saw, it is really night and day

From their webpage

Quote:

An Orthodox school: LDH considers that the man realizes his potential through strict respect of the mitzvot and intellectuel learning of the Torah ... The pupils are brought up from start to follow the mitzvos (morning tefilla mandatory from start, kippa mandatory...)

Mrs.Norris

Sat, Aug 25 2007, 9:44 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Female teacher for boys and male teachers for girls can be seen. Some teachers do not cover their hair.

what's wrong with that? I went to a Lubavitch run school for a few years and it was girls only and we had male teachers and also female teachers who wern't religious and so didn't cover their hair.

Ruchel wrote:

From kindergarten on girls cannot go with free hair but a ponytail or bun or similar.

what is less tzniut about hair down than in a pony tail? As far as I know schools do that for neatness, I went to a school and we had to have hair up until 6th form when we could wear our own clothes.

tzniut was very different years ago anyway and it definitely wasn't the issue that people have made it out to be today, now it seems it's all some people care about Rolling Eyes

But it's funny because I was looking on someones facebook of old pictures of a stream of the school I went to (it's Orthodox run and zionist but not religious) and I found it funny how the girls in those days wore REALLY long skirts and now they wear skirts that just about cover their bottoms.

Ruchel

Sat, Aug 25 2007, 10:01 pm

Quote:

what's wrong with that? I went to a Lubavitch run school for a few years and it was girls only and we had male teachers and also female teachers who wern't religious and so didn't cover their hair.

I posted as an answer to those who say people were more tznius before.

Quote:

what is less tzniut about hair down than in a pony tail?

some say it draws attention.
I know a minority opinion that allows a woman to go with her hair uncovered if it is not free (I posted about it in the Mo forum).

Of course for me, I see nothing wrong with hair down

Quote:

tzniut was very different years ago anyway and it definitely wasn't the issue that people have made it out to be today

Exactly the topic of my post