What would you say to someone wanting proof davening helps?

amother

Jade

Wed, Oct 03 2018, 2:23 am

I would say: Don't make deals with Hashem. This is not at all how the world works. You daven because you want to be mitpallel, to examine yourself and to make yourself into tzelem Elokim. We do NOT daven in order to remind Hashem of our needs, as if He somehow forgot! And I would also say that as soon as you get one part of your life sorted out guaranteed there will be something else to deal with. That is just life. But if you are going to say this it needs to be with tons of GENUINE empathy about whatever the person is going through, and with a willingness to help if you can.

amother

Navy

Wed, Oct 03 2018, 3:06 am

grace413 wrote:

There is no real proof. There is only belief.

Is there any basis for this belief? If I told you wearing green shoes helps with weight loss you'd say that's ridiculous. Is there any logical reason to suggest that the people who are davening and asking hashem for bracha are receiving more bracha than those that don't bother asking or davening?

amother

Orchid

Wed, Oct 03 2018, 3:35 am

I do have a story or two, as I'm sure many of us do. But there are so many other situations that are less clear.

I believe it was Einstein? who said that when in doubt about God, you're in much better shape believing than not, because if you decide not to and He does exist, that's not great.

I'm reminded of a scene in the movie Gravity when the astronauts are stuck in space with compromised communication systems and hear nothing from home base. The experienced one tells the novice to keep talking to home base anyway, because they don't know that nobody is listening- they may hear and help even if they are not be able to respond.

It's not easy. My story does help me when I'm really stuck, even if logically I know tgat there were many other times I didn't see an answer.

imasoftov

Wed, Oct 03 2018, 4:24 am

amother wrote:

I believe it was Einstein? who said that when in doubt about God, you're in much better shape believing than not, because if you decide not to and He does exist, that's not great.

That was Pascal. Einstein said "I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind". I'm using that quote because it highlights that the OP's question is about prayer, not belief in God.

dankbar

Wed, Oct 03 2018, 4:45 am

If you believe, have emunah & bitochon, keep davening even for small stuff, you see bracha in your life. Every time my dh needs parking & kids are in car, he tells each of them to ask from Hashem & soon after finds a parking spot. He always tells my kids that he found the parking spot bc they davened to Hashem. If you engrain from when they are young its easier for them when they grow up

dankbar

Wed, Oct 03 2018, 4:52 am

Another amazing story, I have meant to sent supper to a family who has going thru a crisis, but kept delaying. One day, out of the blue, I sent her supper, when my husband was headed to that area, with his car. The recepient, calls me with tears, to thank me.....today I have had it & told Hashem that I am relying on you to get supper on my table today. As soon as she finished with her tefilla, the doorbell rang with my supper which was totally unexpected & I didnt know that she was in desparate need that day.

dankbar

Wed, Oct 03 2018, 4:57 am

No tefilla goes to waste. Our loving father sometimes answers no....just like a parent would sometimes answer no to a kid thats tantruming & doesnt understand why giving in to him is not to his benefit. So too Hashem knows whats best for us. There is such a thing though that tefillah can change a gzar din. Why was Moshe Rabbeinu told to stop davening...bc with one more tefilla he might have poiled to go into Eretz Yisrael.

amother

Green

Wed, Oct 03 2018, 5:01 am

dankbar wrote:

This is all nice and good, but then what about when someone does daven and their tefilos are not answered or even if it was ingrained, sometimes bad things happen and then people can not daven to hashem anymore (that happened to me. I have not davenened in quiet a few years, to angry and upset at hashem)

BadTichelDay

Wed, Oct 03 2018, 5:01 am

Define "proof" and define "help"...
I have asked big things of Hashem and my requests have been granted many times. Other times they haven't been.
Does that constitute proof for anyone else?
E.g. I desperately wanted to make aliyah to Israel even though I had a lot going against me. It worked, and very well, too, B"H.
On the other hand, I've asked Hashem to bless us with another child. That hasn't happened (so far).
Hashem isn't a kind of vending machine where you can put in your request, push a button and out comes the desired result.
He's more like a parent, so to speak, who knows a lot better than His children what to grant when.
If my children ask me for another toy/cookie/hour of watching videos, I decide if to say yes or no depending on what's good for them and the whole family. They don't always understand my decisions and aren't always happy about them, of course...
Sometimes I have to take them to the doctor and it hurts or is frightening for them and they scream their heads off but I know it needs to be done.

Last edited by BadTichelDay on Wed, Oct 03 2018, 5:05 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Jade

Wed, Oct 03 2018, 5:04 am

dankbar wrote:

Great story if you see it like this.

Hashem knocked her hard until she could not cope. You already were sending the food.

She chose to daven. That meant that when the food arrived, it was easier for her to see Hashem's Hand at play. That is the value of the tefila.

That's how davening CAN help. But not always. So you have to be extremely careful about this because just because things aren't going the way you want /expect doesn't mean Hashem I'd not "there".

amother

Jade

Wed, Oct 03 2018, 5:15 am

dankbar wrote:

.... He always tells my kids that he found the parking spot bc they davened to Hashem.

I think this diuk is extremely dangerous because I think.it is not true.

Don't want to say anymore because I want to remain anonymous and don't want to be accused of bashing as amother but please speak to someone big about this. It concerns me that it is not quite the right message to be giving. It sounds like the kids are being told that they are "controlling" the situation, which they are most certainly not.

It is true that by this parsha we learn that Hashem did not send rain until we davened for it.

I may be wrong dankbar and would be very interested to hear what you are told if you speak to someone.

chani8

Wed, Oct 03 2018, 6:01 am

A few years ago my teen son was feeling lonely and wanted a friend. I told him, 'I can do a lot for you but that's one area I cannot help with. Why not try asking G-d.' He wasn't sure how much he believed in G-d. So I said, 'test Him.' So he prayed, and told me so. Within a few weeks he ended up with a friend that became his BFF.

I know what you're thinking and I know the shittas that disagree with 'testing Hashem' but for someone who questions, I am confident that Hashem will show them that He's listening.

amother

Emerald

Wed, Oct 03 2018, 6:58 am

dankbar wrote:

yes sometimes Hashem knocks us hard, because he wants our tefillos, he wants us to connect to him.

Okay so wat about ppl who are knocked hard like with infertility and disability like cant move hands or legs well or lack of proper job after being laid off ....??

Wat if these ppl do connect to hashem and daven and daven BUT THEIR SITUATION IS THE SAME?? And many times these ppl have a bigger connection to hashem than "regular" ppl with no great challenges like these!!

I tell my kids to daven in english to connect with hashem and I also tell them sometimes the answer is no. Otherwise, my kids will "see" that the answer is no and be turned off if I had told them just daven and everything will bd fine.

The problem with these nice stories that "work out" is ppl think "but that didnt work out nicely in my life"! Its a turn off for ppl who dont get a yes so easily.

Im working on my bitachon constantly but really the truth is I dont think we can give proof bec we have to know that we cant even begin to understand why hashem says no to many and yes to others. I thought a lot about my "nos" over yom tov and am constantly trying to work on just believing in Him even with "nos". Its tough.

amother

Navy

Wed, Oct 03 2018, 7:32 am

Aside from the individual stories, is there any way we can look at a large group that davens and say, see, they have more bracha in their lives than people that don't daven. Bracha means heath, shalom baylis, fertility, and the like. For example Can we look at 1000 singles who went to shul and cried during the past month and say they are more likely to find shidduchim than the 1000 secular yidden who didn't daven and were mechalel yomtov?

amother

Navy

Wed, Oct 03 2018, 7:43 am

chani8 wrote:

The obvious response would be that there have been let's just say many times were people davened for something and didn't get it. How does your story prove hashem listens to tefila yet all the other unsuccessful stories don't disprove that he listens to tefila?