classical music | Imamother

Motek

Sun, Oct 31 2004, 4:48 pm

Somebody told me she asked Rabbi Marlow (former rav in Crown Heights) a'h the following:

she's a pianist and she had a job performing as an accompanist, and there would be men in the audience

as for the performing part, R' Marlow told her she could play but not to move around (as pianists often do while playing)

he asked her which composers' music she'd be playing
she said obscure French composers
He knew who they were and said fine.

He said anti-Semitic composers were a no-no, as well as Bach and those who composed religious music.

this was an answer to someone who did this as a job, thought you'd find it interesting
not necessarily applicable to playing it at home etc.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Nov 02 2004, 12:57 pm

I enjoy classical music, and it's a hard one here.

Music is the language of the soul. It can touch & reach as not word can.
There fore, when listening to music, one is inviting his soul to communicate directly w/ the sould of the composer & to invite him in.

Now, the real question is:
do you really want your sould to be touched by: homosectulas, christians, etc?
We know that people of art are often morraly corrupt & scociety dissmisses this as their gentle sencitive, artistic personality? In todays world people won't care, as long as it sounds good.

If you know that the composer was/ is a decent person, I'd say, Go ahead and enjoy!
(Not that I'm perfect in this issue, but I do try)

happyduck

Tue, Nov 02 2004, 1:50 pm

I have always had a huge issue with this topic. So many of our "traditional" tunes come from non-Torah sources. The famous "in Kelokeinu" that is s common to hear is a German Bar Song! I will agree 100% to the dea that words can make a song inappropriate, but if it is being used in a kosher manner, the music should be okay. I know of one person, who only could relax to classical musc, and was gven a heter (by a big rav) to even be allowed to do so durrng his year of availus. If we ask this question, why are we not asking can we enjoy listening to the song of a treif bird? Or making use in general of things no created by frum Jews. Can we use a computer? How about the internet (I kow, this is a touch subject as well). Anyhow, just my thoughts.

Motek

Tue, Nov 02 2004, 6:48 pm

Quote:

So many of our "traditional" tunes come from non-Torah sources.

if a tzadik "adopted" it, it's understood that he elevated the holy sparks within it

if anybody else adopts a non-Jewish tune, well ...

Quote:

If we ask this question, why are we not asking can we enjoy listening to the song of a treif bird? Or making use in general of things no created by frum Jews.

the sounds in the world around us don't seem to be a problem as the Torah sources don't say they are

as far as making use of things created by a non-holy source, indeed, tzadikim are sensitive to this! Tzadikim are even sensitive to things that came in contact with a source less holy than they, albeit a good source - a story to illustrate this - someone needed to put on a hat when he got an aliya and the sexton gave him the Alter Rebbe's fur hat.

When the Alter Rebbe took his hat later on, he asked whether someone had used it (being spiritually sensitive to the fact that someone had used it). He then asked the hatmaker to undo all the seams and to re-stitch the hat. There's more to the story, just wanted to bring out this point.

ordinary people though, are permitted to use things in the world around us, though consider the fact that we must toivel (immerse) dishes made by gentiles!

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Nov 02 2004, 11:33 pm

Quote:

If we ask this question, why are we not asking can we enjoy listening to the song of a treif bird? Or making use in general of things no created by frum Jews.

music written by people is different. It;s a neshama talking to neshama.
H' creatred the sounds of nature.
Technology can and shoudl be used as needed, as I do not get ipacted by a food processor the same way as by a computer.

as far as Jews adopting music - there are 2 possibilities:
1. it was a Jewish tune, which was 'returned home'
2. if it was written by a [gentile].. well, it's goish music, & I must confess I see a problem with it being elevated.
As I said, it really depends on the author.. If he was a decent person, than why not. On the other hand, this is a very shaky ground. How do you (and Torah) define a decent person?

Well, I have enjoyed music in my 'previous' life, and since there is no nice replacement, I have a very hard time with this whole issue.

-----------
HappyDuck, have you heard Variations? What they do is take a goish song ("Hotel California" /Eagles/, "we are the world, we are the children" etc), change a few words - "welcome ot the hotel california" becomes "Pesah in the Hotel California" - and sell it as Jewish music. Besides that I can't listen to it, b/c I heard the originals & they're MUCH better, I do not consider it to be Jewish at all.

happyduck

Tue, Nov 02 2004, 11:44 pm

So nu? Where do we draw the line? I still do not understand why music would be any different from science. We know benjamin franklin was a womanizer and an alcoholic. Should we not use electricity? MAybe wait for lightning to strike a tree?

One of my husbands rebbeim in Yeshiva was a Jewish music producer (a very big one) and I had this argument with him at his shabbos table (DH could not believe I was arguing with his rebbe), butthe final outcome was Jewish music is the emotion invested in the music, not necessarily the music itself.

A similar example can be seenwith a friend of dh's from in yeshiva. Hs parents fobade him from buying a black hat. He bught a cubs baseball cap for davening and all of the rabbeim agreed thathe invessted it with more kedusha then the bochrim gave their hats.

(BTW, I am not lubavitch. I can not say I hold all rebbe stores to be the ultimate answer. I see a huge problem with the story a pp posted. As there is no question he was a great talmid chacham,I would not go so far as t say it is shameful, but I would question the validity of the story as it waswrittenand think there must be more to it.)

And I like variatons.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Nov 02 2004, 11:55 pm

As far as electicity -
Electricity in a natural phenomen, harnessed by Franklin.
Music is an expression of a soul. There is a BIG difference here.
Would you want your daughter to read Shaikspere? it's only a collection of letters & words, after all..... Pretty much the same here: this spesific soul put notes in certain order & we've got music....

HappyDuck, I'm not arguing with you on all the other points. As I said, I have a problem myself.

But I'll never agree that Hotel California is holy. Sorry. It's a bed re-make of a great song. (my past speaking here)

PS I'm not hasidish too

happyduck

Wed, Nov 03 2004, 12:04 am

Actually, I would not have aproblem if she read Shakespear. (And I agreewith you, variations does not come anywhere close to the originals, but it is not to horrible a second).

DHs rebbe says,when asked where his music comes from "All music is the quiet song of HKBH. It is the song of the universe. Most of us are just to noisy to hear it."

ForeverYoung
Guest

Wed, Nov 03 2004, 12:16 am

all right, you got me w/ Shakespear, but I still stick to the "language of the soul', though.

The words of you DH's Rav are beautiful, but not all music comes from H' - take Heavy Metal, punk, etc - there are plenty out there who are very far from Kedusha.

Motek

Wed, Nov 03 2004, 11:12 am

Quote:

Where do we draw the line? I still do not understand why music would be any different from science. We know benjamin franklin was a womanizer and an alcoholic. Should we not use electricity?

music is composed by a human being
electricity and other natural phenomena were created by G-d

as for those things created by man, such as toasters and cars, they are not affected by the men who made them to the extent that it makes any impact on us

gryp

Wed, Nov 03 2004, 2:33 pm

(chassidus teaches) music is unique in that when we connect to the neshama of the composer when we sing their song. for this reason, niggunim of the Rebbeim are such a big part in Chassidic life. I dont think any of us would want to connect our neshamas to the neshama/ nefesh of the non jewish composers.

Tefila

Sun, Nov 07 2004, 8:27 am

Quote:

chassidus teaches) music is unique in that when we connect to the neshama of the composer when we sing their song. for this reason, niggunim of the Rebbeim are such a big part in Chassidic life. I dont think any of us would want to connect our neshamas to the neshama/ nefesh of the non jewish composers.

I totaly agree and this I believe is why the Lubavitcher Rebbe was so into niggunim Exclamation

Tefila

Mon, Nov 08 2004, 10:20 pm

freilich took from the thread check this out

Quote:

even though sometimes we can garnish wisdom from the non jews. The Lubavitcher Rebbe told of a rabbi of a shul at a farbrengen who gave phenominal drashas in his shul that he garnerd from priests
B/c they are coming from tumah, kelipah it is wrong to use or be inspired by them we should look to Torah sources for our inspiration. C"v that is how people can be influenced... even in the subconcious, in thought processes etc Just like music it can inspire elevate but what are the sources? that is why niggunim are so powerfull and special

quoting myself Wink

amother

Mon, Nov 15 2004, 8:42 pm

here is a related question - how do you learn "proper" musical technique if you do not study the classics. where are there frum sources that can teach you how to be a musician (sorry, music from Miami boys choir might not be considered "music" in professional circles . Wink

)

any frum musicians out there?

ForeverYoung
Guest

Mon, Nov 15 2004, 8:50 pm

well, I think there is no way of going around teh classics to become professional.

However there are planty talanted jews who learn how to play & improvise pretty well.
they will never be professional, but their knowledge, ability & talant are enough to enhace simhos.
(I do not think this applies to magority, but even the majority plays pretty well)

sarahd

Wed, Apr 13 2005, 5:15 pm

I once had this discussion about listening to classical music and was informed (try as I might, I can't remember by whom or in whose name) that classical music is acceptable to listen to because it is the composer's concept of of ruchniyus and heavenliness (is that a word?). True, his concept is not the same as ours, but the music is still an expression of his reaching for ruchniyus. If you listen to good classical music, you can feel this.

(Whereas pop music and other sorts of music are expressions of the composer's tuma.)

Motek

Wed, Apr 13 2005, 5:21 pm

I know you've tried but can't remember, but I'd love a source for that - not so much who you heard it from, but what their source is.

I wonder whether the explanation is emes (because I think that the non-Jewish music, even classical, is either "good for the Jews" or it isn't, regardless as to whether the composer had spiritual yearnings) or a tirutz (excuse to be able to listen to it without feeling guilty)