why do we not use the same fork

TammyTammy

Mon, Oct 01 2007, 12:40 pm

Sue DaNym wrote:

tammy
#1 if chazal said eating fish and meat is dangerous then its dangerous. and if they didnt say that smoking was dangerous (its not in the shulchan aruch) then by definition its not as dangerous as smoking.

Do you really mean to tell me that if you take a random group of 1000 smokers and a random group of 1000 meat/fish eaters, that more of the meat/fish eaters will die as a result of their meat/fish diets than smokers will die as a result of their smoking?

I know several people who have died of smoking-related problems. Not only do I not know of anyone who died from eating meat and fish, I don't know of anyone who knows of anyone who died from eating meat and fish!

If you have some hard stats on this, please present them.

Quote:

#2 you dont know how many people die from eating fish and meat. probly alot of them are just marked as choking or the like. but if chazal said its dangerous then it is

You're right... I don't know how many people choke on meat and fish... but I can easily find out how many people choke in total. Considering that the vast majority probably choke on non meat-fish mixtures, I'm still willing to put dollars to doughnuts that more people die of smoking than eating meat/fish.

Quote:

#3 whats disappointing is the fact that youd tell people to go against whats directly written in the shulchan aruch in favor of some junk science.

Did you even read what I wrote?! I explicitly stated that I wasn't advocating people abandon the halacha (happy, Motek? Smile

) of eating fish and meat together. All I said was that in a hypothetical, not-real-life situtation, where the choice was between violating two issurs, I would violate the one that saved more lives. In no way did I advocate people abandoning the Shulchan Aruch.

Tammy

Ribbie Danzinger

Mon, Oct 01 2007, 2:50 pm

Maybe the reason why we don't see many people dying of eating meat and fish together is the direct result of keeping the halachah not to do so? (There is no proof from the fact that non jews eat the two together with no obvious dangers involved that this is not dangerous for Jews).

Our sages said that "chamira sakanta me'issura" that something that one should be more stringent with something that is considered dangerous than with a regular prohibition.

Also, consider that there are no halachic authorities (AFAIK) who do permit eating fish and meat together and there is no debate about it, since it is brought as halachah, yet there may be rabbanim who turn a blind eye to smoking.

For all of these reasons, I would not even begin to make hypotheses about whether smoking is preferable to eating meat with fish or vice versa, even though it is obviously clear that smoking too endangers health.

My best hypothesis is that had smoking been around in the days of Chazal, with all the proof of how dangerous it is, I'm sure the SA would have prohibited it too. However, since it was not and since he did not, it still does not reach the level of prohibition that eating fish and meat together has.

Ruchel

Mon, Oct 01 2007, 3:37 pm

Reposting this

Quote:

Junk science, sure... I wonder why so many frum people bother to go to university for science then!

Even if we count people who choked on a fishbone, people who died because of smoking are MUCH more numerous.

It is interesting because a quick search online gave me this: someone asking a rav if it is allowed to smoke. The rav starts by giving junk science polls showing that tobacco is extremely dangerous.

He goes on with "since we have these surveys, THE ISSUR OF SMOKING IS DEORAISA, according to Beer Moshé (6,160), Tsits Eliézer (15,39), ***é Leha Rav (1,42), Rav Batsri 'Diné Mamonot' (pirké moussar), Rav Volbé (Peer Tahat Efer 49), Rav Zalman Néhémia Goldberg (idem), and many others.

The most lenient say it is not Torah, "only" derabbanan: Rav Elyashiv, Az Nédabérou, Mishné halahot."

I feel blessed that my rav would never say smoking is less dangerous or forbidden (although he is not the author of the answer above, he is really of the same type).

Rivka

Sun, Oct 07 2007, 2:41 pm

I would advise those women who seem to think smoking is safe and eating fish with meat leads to sudden death to go visit their local cancer ward.
Go around and have a look at the patients struggling to breath that are suffering from lung cancer due to their smoking habit.
Then go to a normal ward and ask the staff if they can tell them how many patients have died or are in critical condition from eating meat with fish...

Don't debunk science as it's what saves your childs life everytime they get a fever or an infection.

Lechatchila Ariber

Sun, Oct 07 2007, 2:59 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

Motek wrote:

I chose not to respond further. I said what I wanted to say.

Don't reword what I said to make it sound as though I am opposed to saving lives. That's a low blow.

I did not reword what you said.

I said that if I had to pick one issur for everyone to violate, I'd choose to have them violate meat/fish since it would save many lives. You said that that was "disappointing" since I owe my alliegence to Chazal.

How was I supposed to interpret that?

Tammy

If you were traveling and got stuck somewhere and had to choose between a nutritious treif meal or a unhealthy packet of kosher bissly would you eat treif?

I find this whole discussion and comparisons you started inappropriate.
someone started a thread asking about a halacha and you come along with an argument that appears to disparage jews who keep this halacha
no one is suggesting we all start taking up smoking.
both are wrong, one spiritually and one physically
end of story
this is a stupid argument and yes to the observer you are putting words in motek's mouth

Ruchel

Mon, Oct 08 2007, 10:11 am

EstiS wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

Motek wrote:

I chose not to respond further. I said what I wanted to say.

Don't reword what I said to make it sound as though I am opposed to saving lives. That's a low blow.

you would have to ask a rav before choosing imho. It depends on how unkosher, are we talking of pork? or of cholov stam for someone who keeps cholov yisroel? not the same...
Bissly is fattening but not dangerous. It doesn't KILL. So it's ok to choose bissly.
As for spiritual, you can't feel very spiritual when you're slowly (or not) destroying the body G-d gave you. It makes me laugh when a smoker says piercing destroys the "wholeness" of the body.

HindaRochel

Mon, Oct 08 2007, 10:43 am

This is so far from the original point of WHY...
WHY because the Rabbi's of the time felt it was a health issue. I brought evidence that indicated that at one time in Jewish history they might not have been separated. Do we and should we still separate? Yes--- though there may be some Rabbi's who pasken otherwise. If we make a mistake do we need to kasher anything? No. If the same Rabbi's who made the decree were alive today would they have ruled the same? Who knows...I think no, that difference evidence would bring different results but who cares? For all intents and purposes we separate fish from our meat.

Should smoking come under the same catagory? If you ask me yes; that is verifiably harmful at this point in time. The harm wasn't known in the past. Should it be ruled forbidden? We don't have the same powers as in the past, it can't be, but I think the issue deserves stronger comdenation from the Rabbi's; like...no Simchat Torah/Purim isn't a reason to smoke.

Limited choices of food one which is kosher and one which is not? How long am I likely to be hungry? Trapped in a forsaken place and not knowing when I'll get to safety and we are talking about wine and bread I might have the treif bread over the wine since drunk isn't likely to be beneficial. Chocolate and bread? I'll go for the chocolate first, save the bread if I'm really desperate...unless I have blood sugar problems.

Motek

Mon, Oct 08 2007, 5:58 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

WHY because the Rabbi's of the time felt it was a health issue... If the same Rabbi's who made the decree were alive today would they have ruled the same? Who knows...I think no, that difference evidence would bring different results but who cares?

The rabbis of the time? Let's be specific. The rabbis referred to are the Amoraim, the Sages of the Talmud whose comments are recorded in the Oral Law, the Oral Law that was given to Moshe at Sinai, along with the Written Torah. Your comments are entirely inappropriate and have no place on a website for frum women.

greenfire

Mon, Oct 08 2007, 6:04 pm

Motek wrote:

HindaRochel wrote:

why on earth not ... today a rov paskens on the current situations ... and we are well aware of more technology ... and differences in the world then and now ... it doesn't make someone anti torah just because they feel things would be paskened different ... even today a rov paskens dif shailos dependant on the asker ... and their situation.

Motek

Mon, Oct 08 2007, 8:04 pm

zeldy wrote:

There are many health related issurim mentioned in the oral law that we do not practice. Pregnant women are not supposed to eat cucumbers and melons, I read somewhere. Who follows that nowadays?

It doesn't say they are not supposed to. It says that the mann did not taste like 5 vegetables because it's not good for the baby. That is not brought down in halacha in Shulchan Aruch. Big difference between those things mentioned in the Gemara that are not brought down in halacha and those that are.