American Yeshivish

amother

Pewter

Thu, May 23 2019, 4:37 pm

amother [ Denim ] wrote:

Hey, he sounds just like my FIL! And the same age too. They probably all learned in the same yeshivah- the very frum world was very small in those days.

Just so you know people like your father and my FIL were the minority even then. How big do you think Torah Vdaas was in those days? How many yeshivos were there altogether? It was a minority even then. To put it into perspective, none of the boys my FIL went to elementary school remained frum.

Rabbi Avigdor Miller, who predates them by about half a generation, would daven that at least one of his children should stay frum.

But the question was what the yeshivos were producing. I would guess that if they made it to post high school yeshiva, they would hold onto their Yiddishkeit.

amother

Denim

Thu, May 23 2019, 4:42 pm

amother [ Pewter ] wrote:

What percentage made it to post high school? I have no idea myself, just wondering out loud. It was not a popular choice, I think.

amother

Apricot

Thu, May 23 2019, 5:11 pm

in my father's case he had run away with his family from the holocaust. Thankfully he didn't have to go through the atrocities but he was well aware that he was incredibly lucky to have been saved and come to America. I remember hearing that he felt that there must have been a reason why he was saved and lived his life accordingly.

I don't think the current generations feel that same sense of responsibility. I think the outside world was also more moral so there wasn't as much an attitude of needing to shelter from that and not go to work...Some people have become more extreme, others care less, others are disillusioned... I think in my father's generation the frum people were genuinely frum (regardless of skirt length) but many went off the derech.

I know every generation has their gedolim but sometimes I feel like we are floundering in the dark but maybe that's just me personally. Confused

amother

Jetblack

Thu, May 23 2019, 5:20 pm

smileforamile wrote:

100%. I'm not saying that school guidance counselors have an easy job -- from what I see, it's really hard. However, it's a different type of stress. The classroom management coupled with being at the mercy of your admin's ratings is really hard.

I was recently summoned to a disciplinary meeting because I've taken 9 days off from work this year (I'm entitled to 10). I have excuses for many of those, but they didn't care. I didn't end up being disciplined, but still, I feel really harassed.

My mother is an OT in public school. She admits that my job is 100 times harder than hers. My aunt is a librarian in public school - same thing.

In Bais Yaakov, it is implicit that students need to follow rules or there will be consequences. In public school, you can't enforce anything. (A student who punched another one and landed him in the hospital was suspended for 5 days; another student who dispensed weed was suspended for a year. Just to show what the priorities are.)

Anyway, I'm discovering that I don't have what it takes to teach this generation of students. I can interact with them well one-on-one, but not stand in front of 30+ of them (especially when half of them don't speak English).

That sounds frustrating. Are you quitting?

Notsobusy

Thu, May 23 2019, 6:33 pm

keym wrote:

You know, I heard that before. The rosh yeshiva or rosh Kollel pays lip service to saying stay home and help.
But having seder erev shabbos (after 2pm) created a culture of expectations. The wife feels bad asking. She feels less than for not managing.
It would be more impressive to me if the rosh yeshiva said straight out every man must help. The serious man will learn on line at the bank, will learn at the park, or listen to a shirt while washing the floor.
Why even create a culture that men and women feel unrealistic pressure.

My good friend was having a lot of issues with her pregnancy and had a lot of appointments with specialists. Her husband's rosh kollel was extremely upset that he kept taking off and wanted to know why he had to go with her to every appointment and why they couldn't make the appointments at night so he wouldn't miss so much seder. He left the kollel after that zman because of this guy's ridiculous expectations.

amother

Saddlebrown

Thu, May 23 2019, 7:37 pm

Notsobusy wrote:

At the same time, if he is in a paid Kollel (or technically even if not, if he has a chavrusa counting on him) then he has to treat his time in Kollel as responsibly as he would a job. He has to ask himself honestly if would take off for all those appointments had he been employed in an office or a firm etc. Most bosses wouldn't take too well to that either. Obviously there are extenuating circumstances and situations where you might honestly say he would have taken off for every appointment from a real job, but thats not so common.

amother

Wheat

Thu, May 23 2019, 8:41 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I don't think the yeshivos today are turning out alot of men like my father.

Still - of the working men I know - I want to tell you that if your husband goes out to work every night - THAT IS TREMENDOUS. Do you know how hard it is to go out and learn after a day at work? As a wife, I can't tell you if I'd make a very good guy. Seriously. When I'm tired at night I crash, and no one blames me if I leave a basket of laundry or the dishes for tomorrow, no one starts questioning my dedication to Torah and Mitzvos for it. It's huge that your husband does that.

What you can do is, appreciate that. Tell him how much you value that he goes out to learn at night.

I once heard a tape from R' Avigdor Miller in which a man asked - if a man has a limited amount of time to learn, what should he learn? And Rabbi MIller answered - ma shelibo chofetz. He should learn what interests him, and that will lead him to more learning. So if your husband is inclined to learn practical Halacha - that's great! And may it be a springboard for him to more learning, B"EH when he has more Koach.

So what you can do is daven, and celebrate his successes.

Thank you Chayalle. You really gave me some food for thought. You're 100% right. I'm gonna try to work on that.

DVOM

Fri, May 24 2019, 6:35 am

Interesting discussion.

While I live in Lakewood, where much of the unrealistic expectations and revolting egoism of the very yeshivish world seems to stem from, in my son's school and in my community I'm not feeling it. This may be because my kids are still young. Perhaps the intensity and fanaticism really gain traction in high school and beyond. In my boys' elementary school they are participating in a program called Masmidai Hasiyum, a lovely learning program where the boys can enter the learning they are assigned for HW (and any extra learning they want to do) for tickets and prizes, one of the grand prizes being tickets to the Siyum Hashas next year. The aim is to give the kids a sense of participating in and learning towards the siyum. It also holds up people who are actually making a siyum on Shaas as real talmidai chachamim who are about to celebrate a massive, impressive, awsome accomplishment. My boys know that my dad, thier grandpa, is going to be participating. They are so impressed and proud of him. I'm not getting any of the attitude of 'it's not really the real thing' from my kids school. I'm curious to know if other Lakewood elementary schools are participating in the program. We send them to the 'leftest' Lakewood yeshiva.

DVOM

Fri, May 24 2019, 6:37 am

keym wrote:

It's an attitude of gaiva and selfishness. The same attitude that makes a boy think he deserves 2-3k a month for years on end. Certain yeshivos are known to be more into the "demanding support" thing.
It's yeshivos that insist on mandatory erev shabbos, motzei shabbos, bein hazmanim seder.
It's the yeshivos that have an outright competition who could miss the least, and even be in yeshiva extra when their wives have babies.
Not for my daughter either.

Nor my sons.

DVOM

Fri, May 24 2019, 6:42 am

keym wrote:

It's the general attitude, I guess.
My husband is a lot like your father. Learning every spare second he can, listening to shiurim, etc.
Yet when we are at a family get together where 85% are still learning, he gets talked over.
Even if he's holding in a sugya, some 19 year old yeshiva boy will check what he says because "you're just a baal habas, we need to make sure."
When he made a siyum on Shas, there were strong comments on "it not counting".
And I've heard from several men that as the excitement for the Siyum Hashas approaches, there is a very strong disdain in yeshivas. It's more like "these balabatim think they're acquiring gantze Shas by learning in a Shiur an hour a day. So we throw a whole celebration. Yay them. But we all know the truth they have only a pale imitation."

Obnoxious, I know.
It mostly is in the younger set (18-28). As men get older 30,40,50, they gain a maturity.
But OP says she's in this younger age range.
So I could totally hear that she gets the attitude.

I don't hear this attitude in real life, Keym, I guess I don't run in these circles...how frightening. When did each man and woman's relationship with God become a competition?

amother

Babyblue

Fri, May 24 2019, 6:51 am

DVOM wrote:

Tashbar is participating. I’ve never encountered this attitude either. But my friends and family all learned for a couple of years and then went to work- it wasn’t a surprise.

amother

Fri, May 24 2019, 8:19 am

DVOM wrote:

I don't hear this attitude in real life, Keym, I guess I don't run in these circles...how frightening. When did each man and woman's relationship with God become a competition?

I hear it a lot. And this is from someone whose DH learned in kollel for 7 years!

I think that's one of the things that I'm struggling with -- the competition. I want to be among people who are working on growing in avodas Hashem for the sake of avodas Hashem, not for the sake of impressing others. I guess I need to work on that attitude, since it doesn't really matter what people think if I know that I am working on myself.

It's hard to value honesty and integrity in an olam hasheker. It may explain some of my cynicism-I get burned a lot.

Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 7:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

keym

Fri, May 24 2019, 8:27 am

DVOM wrote:

I don't hear this attitude in real life, Keym, I guess I don't run in these circles...how frightening. When did each man and woman's relationship with God become a competition?

Maybe I wasn't clear. Right now, the circles that I run in Lakewood (30-50), I barely get this attitude.
My sons school is also participating in the Siyum Hashas program.
However, I have come across the attitude from men in certain circles, not necessarily even Lakewood.
However, these men are all younger 20-30. So I could totally see OP getting such grief.
When my husband left yeshiva 8-10 years ago, I got it much more. Now, my circles have grown up, we've moved on. It doesn't bother me.
But I do hear my sisters, cousins, etc. The various yeshiva attitudes come from them and their husbands.

amother

Pumpkin

Fri, May 24 2019, 8:32 am

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

I work in one of the therapies. And it's a great job, I'm not complaining at all. I am friendly with some of the teachers at my schools and they are happy so I know it is possible. But I am sure it's not easy.

Yes, its possible. Some ppl have good positions. They get the best kids(honors) and rooms with ac and technology...resources...with the best schedule and support from admin such that they know their admin will rate them well so they don't stress. And, guess what? Bec their jobs are great, they stay in that position all yrs until retiring unlike this op that wants out and I'm sure that position is like a revolving door. Its very hard to get the good positions bec those teachers stay. Like my relatives aunt in a top school, new building..etc. But, most ppl I talk to who are in "regular" positions hate it.

Mommyg8

Fri, May 24 2019, 9:10 am

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

Totally disagree. There's a huge difference between an office job and learning in kollel. First - ideally a person should be able to take off from work for a family emergency - it's just that some employers are more flexible than others. It's not an ideal- something to aspire to.

Second, it the husband is in kollel the wife is likely bearing the brunt of the parnasah responsibility and she is likely overwhelmed as it is. The least he can do is make things a little easier for her.

Third, part of what makes kollel work is that it's flexible. If the wife works at an inflexible full time job, for example, the only way it works is that the husbands schedule is more flexible. He may need to take off some time for childcare, for example. This is how the system actually works.

Fourth, as my husband once said, when they pay me a real salary I'll treat it as a real job. Men who are in kollel have hopefully chosen this route on their own because they want to learn, and they're not little babies who need to give a din vcheshbon for every minute of their time. They're not in school that they need to follow a schedule. They're adults who can make their own decisions as to how to spend their time.

My husband actually had a chavrusah who would take off here and there to take his wife for chemo treatments (this happens to be a very choshuva man who is still learning at 70). My husband knew the set up going in, this was part of their arrangement. Hopefully any compassionare employer would allow this as well.