We don't have free will

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amother

Sun, Aug 11 2019, 6:59 am

We don't really have free will, do we? We only have this illusion of free will. We have a "decision" to fight or not fight. If we don't fight we end up miserable here and in the next world, and if we do fight then it's hard but we will be happy.

So anyone who understands the real consequences of how this world works will choose to fight

But if the other option sucks, than how is that a choice?

You're asking me to choose between eating chocolate and eating bugs. There is no choice, just an illusion of a choice. The items you are choosing between are not equal whatsoever or close to that. So Hashem it forcing us to live out this long life of fighting; a life some of us don't want and never asked for.

And there's no other choice.
How does that sound good? How does that make sense? How does that mean we aren't just puppets on Hashem's strings doing his things that he wants us to do?

How on earth is that free will?

amother

Violet

Sun, Aug 11 2019, 7:53 am

Sorry, I'm not understanding your premise of why we don't have free will. You say if we fight it we end up miserable. Is that true? If we don't fight it we feel bad later, is that true? Can you give a real life example please?

amother

Smokey

Sun, Aug 11 2019, 7:55 am

What?

Why are you talking about chocolate and bugs?
We do have choices to make every single day.
Do I yell at my kids or not. Do I smile at my husband or not. Do I greet the neighbours or not etc.
How is hashem forcing anyone to do that?!
You can kill yourself if you want, hashem won't intervene because that's your choice.
You can stay on bc for all of your life and you'll never have kids.
You can stay single all your life and never get married.

How are you forced into any of this by hashem?

happyone

Sun, Aug 11 2019, 8:40 am

Oh yes we have free will. Every waking hour. We have free will over our thoughts, actions, words and interactions .
Some of our will and choices may have repercussions in both this world and the next, that is correct. However we still have bechira one way or another.

amother

Gold

Sun, Aug 11 2019, 8:51 am

OP

If some neighbor started spreading malicious rumors about you and then physically attacked and beat up your children would you truly have no hard feelings because they had no free will and choice about it?

Would you truly feel they have no responsibility ?

Is there really no one in the entire world who you fault for their actions ?

pesek zman

Sun, Aug 11 2019, 8:53 am

Read garden of emunah.

And go eat bugs. People eat bugs round the world. What’s stopping you?

Oh, is it free choice?

amother

Wheat

Sun, Aug 11 2019, 9:38 am

Just because when faced with a choice, one choice is obviously correct and good and the other obviously incorrect and bad, doesn't mean it's not a real choice.
Look around. People make terrible choices every single day.
If every single time you are faced with a choice, a difficult and challenging choice, you are able to easily chose the right thing because you consider the long term consequences, even beyond this world, and know what Hashem wants from you, I'd say you are on a pretty high level. But you still have free choice.

dankbar

Sun, Aug 11 2019, 9:42 am

Hashem gave us mitzvos as way to give us an opportunity to be able to reap reward.

BadTichelDay

Sun, Aug 11 2019, 10:08 am

Hashem has told us via the Torah what we should and shouldn't do. If we do what we shouldn't, there will be consequences. But we can still choose to do the wrong things and punishment is often not immediately.
The whole idea of reward and punishment only makes sense if we have free will. If we were forced to act a certain way, like animals by instinct or machines, there would be no justice in punishments or rewards.
Why don't we take animals to court or put them into jail? (Sometimes, animals that harm humans are put down but that is not a punishment like a "death penalty", rather it is to prevent further attacks). Would you punish a machine because it malfunctions? No, because you know that it has no free will.
Would you punish a baby for making into its diapers or for throwing up on you? No, because it has not yet free will.
But if your teenage son pe-d on the living room carpet, you would presumably be very angry because you'd assume that he has free will and could have just not done that.
Hashem tells us what is right and wrong and encourages right behaviour but anyone can turn his/her back on that. You are free to sin. There are unfortunately lots of Jews that don't keep kosher or Shabbat and they don't get zapped every time by a flash from the sky. There are non-Jews who are outright idolators and don't care about the Noahide laws and rob and murder and yet the ground doesn't open every time and swallow them. There are lots of atheists who don't believe in Hashem or reward and punishment or life after death. A lot of them live long lives and Hashem lets them do as they choose. Somehow, sometime they will get punished, but the how and when is entirely in Hashem's hands and often not visible or understandable to us. We are free to not believe in it even.
The whole essence of human existence is free choice. That is why we are not animals or machines that run on a program on the one hand and not angels/malachim who can do only Hashems will and nothing else on the other hand. We are the only ones who can choose. Hashem wants us to choose Him and tells us so, but he leaves us free to not do it any old time.

amother

Violet

Sun, Aug 11 2019, 10:59 am

I've always had a question about since hashem knows how our lives will all play out and what choices we'll make, why put neshamas into this world knowing they will make bad choices and do aveiros, and then punish them and send them to gehenim? What's the point of this?

amother

Crimson

Sun, Aug 11 2019, 11:05 am

We absolutely do.

Try to find a Rabbi you trust and he will properly explain it to you. Any questions such as this should be directed at talmidei chachamim

dankbar

Sun, Aug 11 2019, 11:42 am

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

just like when you give your child a red & blue lolly to choose from & you know that he always picks the red one, does he not have a choice anymore? Even more so, he might suprise you this time & pick the blue one.

If you give a child a choice of chicken or jellies, you know he will pick jellies of course, he still has the choice. You can try to convince him to take the chicken, but most probably he'll go for the jellies, even if you know chicken is more beneficial to him. So mostly we wouldnt offer such choices because we want him to eat the chicken.

Now suppose you present your child that he can have jellies after he finishes the chicken. Its an incentive to try to get him to eat the chicken, but ultimately its hes choice whether he will push himself to eat the chicken in order to get the jellies or he will forgo the jellies because he doesnt want the chicken either, because he hates it so badly. So did you take away his choice? no. If he chooses not to eat the chicken, that means hes opting not to get the jellies either.

amother

Salmon

Sun, Aug 11 2019, 12:32 pm

OP what I understand from your post is that you are upset that we have "free choice" but it's not free becasue if we dont choose good we are punished. And the good choice is usually the harder choice so you feel stuck. I dont have answers but maybe some explanations.
1. This system is supposed to Eventually bring joy to the do- gooder through feeling satisfaction from doing the right thing and also becoming emotionally stronger for having self control.
2. Re Hashem knowing what we will choose, I learned that since Hashem is above time, the past present and future are all existing now so it's not that Hashem knows what will happen but that He sees it as IT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED. It's a bit of a mind twist but if we fully understood everything we would BE God so there is a leap of faith we are supposed to take to believe. We believe, but we dont know for sure from seeing with our own eyes. Like how to you know Singapore exists if you have never been there and seen it with your own eyes. You have lots of evidence gathered and you come to the conclusion that you believe it exists. Kinda the same with God.
Again I dont ahve answers but I have enough evidence to believe that God exists and hopefully there are answers for why bad things happen to good people but I might never understand it. I accept that it will have to be enough for me although it upsets me at times.

amother

Violet

Sun, Aug 11 2019, 12:38 pm

dankbar wrote:

I don't see your comparison. Hashem knows with 100% certainty which we will choose. There won't be any surprises. Also, the bad choice will lead to a fiery gehenim. Hashem knows this is exactly how it will play out. He will send this neshama down, the neshama will be mechalel shabbos and do all kinds of bad aveiros, the person will die and go to gehenim.

Learning

Sun, Aug 11 2019, 1:41 pm

I understand your question. It is a paradox. But we need just to try our best to do the mitzvos.
The paradox is that we are put here hashem knows the future and asks us to do stuff of else.. it doesn’t make sense. I think that hashem is smarter than me and there is a logic to this madness. We will find out when mashiach comes.

amother

Saddlebrown

Sun, Aug 11 2019, 3:42 pm

This is how I think it goes
We have free will to choose, but whether we are able to do it or not is still up to Hashem.

amother

Sun, Aug 11 2019, 3:49 pm

I'm not talking about free will within the stupid worldy things.
Or free will to yell and abuse other people.

I mean the choice to get out of a depression.
The choice to do inner work to deal with the trauma and abuse you underwent as a child.
The choice to deal with your anger at Hashem when he gives you your 5th miscarriage in a row.

You could choose NOT to deal with your inner demons but in the long run, it'll hurt you.
Hashem is forcing things onto you, forcing you to fight or deal with those things.
If you want a good life that is, if you want to be genuinely happy.
There is not being genuinely happy without facing these problems and fighting them.
I never asked for this stuff. I never chose this stuff. I want to be happy without fighting it

amother

Beige

Sun, Aug 11 2019, 4:01 pm

Free will doesn’t mean free power and control.

It doesn’t mean you can control all the circumstances around you but it does mean you have the freedom to choose what to do in those circumstances.

Ha-Shem has the master plan, we can navigate our path in life through free will . Miracles can alter the “master plan” too, so never give up hope!

( some of these ideas come from Rabbi Kaplan writings, If I am not accurate please feel free to correct)

FranticFrummie

Sun, Aug 11 2019, 4:05 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Me too.

amother

Sun, Aug 11 2019, 4:08 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

Me too.

Thanks for the hugs.
But I want an answer; I've spoken to many Rabbis and none can give an answer on how this constitutes free wIll. How were not just puppets doing what Hashem wants, fighting these battles cuz there's no other choice.

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