For what did you mourn today?

amother

Babypink

Mon, Aug 12 2019, 10:53 am

I cried for not being able to have more children..

I pictured an empty crib, stroller, unused baby blanket and stretchies..
The pain is so deep. I try not to go to that place of pain but I went there yesterday.

amother

Peach

Mon, Aug 12 2019, 11:09 am

My sister got divorced recently. I felt the communal pain of disconnection from each other and ourselves and at the same time that all of us were united in the fact that we were mourning the same loss on the same day.

amother

Cerulean

Mon, Aug 12 2019, 11:15 am

etky wrote:

So in essence you're saying that Tisha B'av is a day to bemoan the absence of a future, eternal Temple whose existance will signify a new utopian age for humanity marked by the end of all human suffering rather than a day of mourning for the destruction of the two historical temples?

We mourn because we don't have a bhmk. This is a concept I've heard often, that all pain that is felt today is tied to this loss. I don't think we're crying for the bhmk during its last years prior to churban rishon, when BY his idols behind their doors and believed neveii sheker, when they burned true neviim and even the kings served a"z in the heichal; or the last days of bayis sheni when BY reported on each other to the Romans and murdered each other.

We're mourning the loss of a time, and longing for a future time, when the entire world knew / will know Who Hashem is, and truth will be clear. It doesn't seem illogical to me to say that most or all pain that we experience now, stems from this lack of clarity.

PinkFridge

Mon, Aug 12 2019, 11:53 am

etky wrote:

My objections to a personalized Tisha B'Av still stand.
Saying that all suffering is connected to the loss of the mikdash makes the day extremely theoretical, unfocused and diffuse.
I see the observance of Tisha B'av and the three weeks preceding it as central mourning rituals that were highly instrumental in the preservation of the Jewish people throughout 2000 years of exile as a unified nation. The specific mourning for the Temple and the attendant loss of Jewish political sovereignty kept alive the memory of our nationhood and our ties to a particular geographical location in all Jewish communities and united them. Sure each community composed their own kinnot to lament their specific predicaments, but still these were communal sorrows and the persecution was real physical persecution that derived directly from being in exile - the result of the churban.
I am in no way belittling peoples' personal sorrows and hardships - just saying that Tisha B'av loses something when it becomes a hold-all for the world's sorrows, that afflict and have afflicted all people from the dawn of humanity.

If we entirely focus on our own tzaros and not the historic and current communal ones, yes, we're missing the point.
But we can mulitask. And we can be nosei b'ol.

etky

Mon, Aug 12 2019, 3:08 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

If we entirely focus on our own tzaros and not the historic and current communal ones, yes, we're missing the point.
But we can mulitask. And we can be nosei b'ol.

We'll have to disagree on this.
I think that we can't multitask on Tisha B'av. I think that private, individual mourning is detrimental and out of place on a day that historically has always been about collective memory.
Tisha B'Av has been intrinsic to our national identity, keeping us distinct from other nations throughout the ages not because we've all mourned our private issues and not because of some theoretical, eschatological yearning for a perfect world completely devoid of human suffering, but because we recalled our common past as a sovereign nation in our own land with a Temple that was a conduit to Hashem and a symbol of our intimate relationship with him that was lost after the destruction. And this was joined by the mourning of subsequent calamities that befell us (some on this very day) as a direct result of being in exile - I.e. being a persecuted minority in a land that was not our own, at the mercy of gentile oppresssors.
This mourning (and the desire to rectify our behavior) is the heart of Tisha B'Av and any other focus dilutes it IMO.

amother

Brown

Mon, Aug 12 2019, 3:14 pm

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

I mourned for this exact thing too.
Adding for those that are wondering if this is relevant to Tishaa Baav-
I think we can use our own pain as a jumping board to understanding the pain of klal yisrael and the shechina.
In addition all of this pain is a result of being so far flung from the loving embrace of our almighty father. Its only because this world is so full of darkness, lies and confusion.
I think its as relevant as can be.

Honestly for me, I think it’s my past (and present) difficulties that are the reason I actually yearn for moshiach.

Tisha B’Av isn’t just about mourning the churban. It’s also about tapping into the loneliness of Hashem and ourselves. It’s about yearning to be close to Hashem and yearning for His embrace.

And I can very much relate to that yearning. It’s not a personal churban I’m mourning. But my churban is what drives that yearning.

amother

Red

Mon, Aug 12 2019, 3:19 pm

I deeply deeply mourn the disengagement from Gaza. Whenever I think about it, I burst out crying. The images of Jewish soldiers yanking adults and carrying them out of their beautiful houses, the images of Arabs trashing those houses and now using them as a launching pad for rockets on the rest of Israel. So much beauty, and so much went to waste, for nothing. People lost their everything, and for nothing. Whenever I think of that I burst into tears. So I hold it in a whole year except for one day. This is galus.

PinkFridge

Mon, Aug 12 2019, 3:20 pm

etky wrote:

We'll have to disagree on this.
.

What about multitasking in the sense of mourning the pain of others, I.e. being nosei b'ol? Does that detract from Tisha b'Av? (Frankly, I shudder to type these words.)

PinkFridge

Mon, Aug 12 2019, 3:22 pm

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

Rabbi Ephraim Stauber has a Tisha b'Av short burst of inspiration video on TorahAnytime. He says, make sure you mourn. Whatever it takes, just feel a sense of mourning.

I agree. And I would say (and he might have too but I don't remember) then channel it.

etky

Mon, Aug 12 2019, 3:36 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

What about multitasking in the sense of mourning the pain of others, I.e. being nosei b'ol? Does that detract from Tisha b'Av? (Frankly, I shudder to type these words.)

No, of course not - that's part of the tikun that Tisha B'Av should rouse us to do.
The memory of the destruction that was caused by sinat chinam should encourage us to become a society marked by empathy for the plight and pain of others.
It's not enough to mourn on Tisha B'Av: we need to resolve to do better in our relationship with G-d and with others.
But how does focusing on one's own misery encourage that?

thunderstorm

Mon, Aug 12 2019, 3:42 pm

amother [ Honeydew ] wrote:

This year I decided to read my grandmother's book ,it's only available so far in Hebrew and Hungarian Its called "I was 15 year old at the Nazi Gehinom".
It was horrible.I did not finish it

If it ever gets published in English please let us know.

PinkFridge

Mon, Aug 12 2019, 4:42 pm

etky wrote:

It's a starting point for many people.

amother

Cerulean

Mon, Aug 12 2019, 5:24 pm

etky wrote:

It just seems like splitting hairs, which suffering is a result of being in exile and which one isn't. Mental ilnesses, lack of shalom, tragedies, these things are usually held up as prime examples of what galus in our day means.

amother

Apricot

Mon, Aug 12 2019, 5:46 pm

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

I mourn the childhood I never had.
I mourn the parents I never had (but people think I do).
I mourn the difficulties of struggling to be a good wife and mother when I don’t even know what normal parents or spouses are like.

I could have written this-especially the last sentence.
(When my young adult daughter living at home needs to confide something once in a blue moon she goes to my husband).

Sorry.

amother

Lilac

Mon, Aug 12 2019, 7:32 pm

On Torah anytime there is a shuir from Ms. Chevi Garfinkel given on Tisha bav in camp Sternberg from last year and she goes through how each of our personal tzarros are due to the bais hamikdash is not rebuild. It's an excellent shuir although it is long and is more to tailored teenagers (although I know many adults who appreciated it) a friend sent it to me and it really helped me understand the churban

amother

Sienna

Mon, Aug 12 2019, 9:45 pm

amother [ Pewter ] wrote:

For my childhood
For the mom I could have had
For the mom who is gone forever
For a little girl who passed away on tisha bav night
For the little girl I was, the one who was brutally broken.

If it was difficult for me to connect to the churban it was This piece of news. Hearing abt the loss of a little girl (8 yrs old) on tisha b’uv no less, and imagining her heartbroken parents gave me but a mere glimpse of how hashem must feel to be so alienated from his home and his children.

etky

Tue, Aug 13 2019, 2:31 am

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

I don't think it's splitting hairs.
There are different hashkafa's at play here.
I have never been exposed before to the hashkafa that everyday personal tzarot are a result of the churban and frankly it seems very stretched and extraneous to me, especially when there are no lack of objective, historical results to focus on - a focus that creates and fosters a sense of national unity and collective responsibility.
I don't see the personal approach as being productive in any way whereas the historical approach engenders introspection on a societal level and creates a sense of agency.

PinkFridge

Tue, Aug 13 2019, 8:59 am

etky wrote:

I don't see the personal approach as being productive in any way whereas the historical approach engenders introspection on a societal level and creates a sense of agency.

The Chofetz Chaim Heritage Foundation videos are probably a very good example of societal level introspection.
But we have to be aware of the very real danger of hearing a speaker and thinking, "Well, at least that's not me." Because even if we don't have certain nisyonos, if there is a societal evaluation we can't fall into the trap of thinking it's yenem's fault.
And you could say, and you would be right, that there's a very real danger of thinking about our individual tzaros, the danger being that we would stop there and wallow in our tzaros. There's an interesting shiur on OUTorah by Rabbi Shmuel Silber on making sense of suffering. There is a bit of blunt tell it like it is sandwiching; it's not all fluffy and feel good. But it's very thought-provoking.

https://www.ou.org/torah/machs.....ring/