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Forum
-> Interesting Discussions
daagahminayin
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Thu, Aug 15 2019, 12:39 pm
It could be that veganism will fit in very appropriately with a Torah values when Mashiach comes. By then humanity will be so elevated that the thought of taking any life will be abhorrent to us in ways that it is not to most of us now, and was not to most people throughout history. Science may have progressed enough too, so that by this time we will be eating stem cell meat and not notice the difference. I believe Rav Kook said that the korbanos in the 3rd Beis HaMikdash might not use animals.
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Teomima
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Thu, Aug 15 2019, 12:39 pm
Wow I'm actually really disturbed by so many of the opinions expressed here. Just because the Torah validates the consumption of meat doesn't mean you're going against it if you choose not to, whatever the reason is. And anyone who thinks you can not have a throughly festive meal without meat has obviously not been to my family's entirely vegetarian annual Purim seuda.
It sounds to me like a lot of the posters here have more of an issue with vegans themselves than with veganism. I get it, we're often exposed to a rather haughty attitude from vegans in the public eye. But there's no reason a person can't be a perfectly honorable and respectable Jew who just happens to choose a plant-based lifestyle for themselves.
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FranticFrummie
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Thu, Aug 15 2019, 12:52 pm
I know more than a few vegan and vegetarian converts.
One of the main questions asked by the Beis Din was "When the Third Temple is rebuilt, will you eat the korban Pesach?"
If you say "no", then you are considered one who puts animals above Torah.
If you say "Yes, but only the korban Pesach, because it is holy." then that is accepted.
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LovesHashem
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Thu, Aug 15 2019, 1:40 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote: | I should hope that the sacrifices in the Beit HaMikdash will be a LOT more humane than how we're slaughtering animals en masse today. The conditions of most slaughter houses, egg farms and milking parlors today can be really dire. Both my parents grew up on farms and I was shocked about what went on there (and even what they were doing was considered very small scale and humane) |
Of course OP! Animals will be housed in good conditions and given good food and treated well. We do have halachos on how to treat animals, and feed them etc.
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amother
Rose
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Thu, Aug 15 2019, 2:31 pm
I just want to add that veganism is very popular in Israel, for various reasons. I'm not ok with the worldview that animals have the same value as humans, but I love the unintended consequence of so many Jews keeping kosher.
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amother
OP
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Thu, Aug 15 2019, 2:33 pm
LovesHashem wrote: | Of course OP! Animals will be housed in good conditions and given good food and treated well. We do have halachos on how to treat animals, and feed them etc. |
I had the 'privilege' of seeing the inside of a chicken slaughtering establishment in Kfar Chabad and there's really nothing more moralistic about how Jews treat animals they're going to eat. In practice, financial constraints mean cramped conditions and as much as we're nice to the chickens, the male chicks still get incinerated soon after birth because they're useless and calves still get taken from their mothers so we can drink the milk meant for them no matter how kosher things are done.
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amother
OP
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Thu, Aug 15 2019, 2:34 pm
amother [ Rose ] wrote: | I just want to add that veganism is very popular in Israel, for various reasons. I'm not ok with the worldview that animals have the same value as humans, but I love the unintended consequence of so many Jews keeping kosher. |
This is true, til it comes to greens. Most vegans also care about the produce being organic and organic produce is often bug infested.
Btw being vegan doesn't mean believing that animals have the same value as humans. For me at least, it means that I don't want or need to use animals as commodities when there are other options available to me.
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amother
Salmon
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Thu, Aug 15 2019, 3:00 pm
amother [ Rose ] wrote: | I just want to add that veganism is very popular in Israel, for various reasons. I'm not ok with the worldview that animals have the same value as humans, but I love the unintended consequence of so many Jews keeping kosher. |
Yes, Israel is one of the most vegan countries in the world. It's a very fast growing movement here.
Most vegans I know are very moral, good, down to earth people. It's a vocal minority who equate animals to humans.
Most vegans believe animals dont deserve to be killed and tortured in this day and age, not for food and not for clothing. Not when there are so many substitutes. That doesn't mean they think a dog has the same status as a person.
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amother
Rose
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Thu, Aug 15 2019, 3:59 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote: | This is true, til it comes to greens. Most vegans also care about the produce being organic and organic produce is often bug infested. |
Not to derail this thread, but our great grandparents all ate organic produce and didn't use light boxes to check their produce. They weren't eating treif, were they?
I would be concerned in Israel about vegans eating produce from which teruma and maaser weren't taken.
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amother
Babypink
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Thu, Aug 15 2019, 4:01 pm
amother [ Rose ] wrote: | Not to derail this thread, but our great grandparents all ate organic produce and didn't use light boxes to check their produce. They weren't eating treif, were they?
I would be concerned in Israel about vegans eating produce from which teruma and maaser weren't taken. |
Most of our great grandparents certainly did not eat ORGANIC produce.
They ate produce, sure. And I'm sure they checked for bugs. There a plenty ways to do without a light box, no one says that part is a necessity - it's just to make it easier.
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amother
Rose
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Thu, Aug 15 2019, 4:04 pm
amother [ Babypink ] wrote: | Most of our great grandparents certainly did not eat ORGANIC produce.
They ate produce, sure. And I'm sure they checked for bugs. There a plenty ways to do without a light box, no one says that part is a necessity - it's just to make it easier. |
Of course they ate organic. They didn't have the super pesticides we have nowadays. And my grandmothers washed their vegetables but didn't do anything like what is considered essential now.
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southernbubby
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Thu, Aug 15 2019, 7:14 pm
A person has to make sure to get enough B vitamins but it otherwise sounds mostly healthy. People need to cut back on brown rice due to arsenic. I think that the significance of meat is different today than it was years ago when it was eaten mainly for Shabbos and YomTov instead of every day. This is why I don't see it as clashing with Jewish values but it shouldn't be forced on people or a cause for Shalom bayis issues.
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happymom123
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Thu, Aug 15 2019, 7:25 pm
amother [ Rose ] wrote: | Of course they ate organic. They didn't have the super pesticides we have nowadays. And my grandmothers washed their vegetables but didn't do anything like what is considered essential now. |
My great grandparents cleaned their fruits and veggies very very well. I'm sure a lightbox would've been helpful for them
Eating bugs is and was never ok according to halacha so yes they also had ways to check for bugs
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nchr
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Thu, Aug 15 2019, 7:29 pm
amother [ Rose ] wrote: | Of course they ate organic. They didn't have the super pesticides we have nowadays. And my grandmothers washed their vegetables but didn't do anything like what is considered essential now. |
Bugs have evolved because of the pesticides we have used. I.E. they used to be larger and less hardy; however, now the larger ones are more likely to be found and killed so we have smaller bugs today than in our ancestors' times. However, I am not crazy about checking, but that does not mean that doing so is pointless.
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Mommyg8
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Thu, Aug 15 2019, 8:05 pm
amother [ Rose ] wrote: | Not to derail this thread, but our great grandparents all ate organic produce and didn't use light boxes to check their produce. They weren't eating treif, were they?
I would be concerned in Israel about vegans eating produce from which teruma and maaser weren't taken. |
I don't know about YOUR grandparents, but my grandmother, born around 1910, very definitely checked everything. I remember her checking the rice grain by grain, and the beans and barley as well.
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#BestBubby
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Thu, Aug 15 2019, 9:01 pm
Rabbi Avigdor Miller Zt"l said it's ok to be vegetarian for health reasons. But if you are doing it because you think it is cruel to animals than it's Anti-Torah.
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LovesHashem
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Fri, Aug 16 2019, 4:40 am
amother [ OP ] wrote: | This is true, til it comes to greens. Most vegans also care about the produce being organic and organic produce is often bug infested.
Btw being vegan doesn't mean believing that animals have the same value as humans. For me at least, it means that I don't want or need to use animals as commodities when there are other options available to me. |
But Hashem gave the animals to us FOR us to use.
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LovesHashem
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Fri, Aug 16 2019, 4:42 am
happymom123 wrote: | My great grandparents cleaned their fruits and veggies very very well. I'm sure a lightbox would've been helpful for them
Eating bugs is and was never ok according to halacha so yes they also had ways to check for bugs |
What's a lightbox?
Perhaps the technology has not yet come to Israel.
We check everything without one just fine thank you very much.
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amother
Salmon
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Fri, Aug 16 2019, 4:54 am
LovesHashem wrote: | But Hashem gave the animals to us FOR us to use. |
Slaves are also ok according to the Torah.
The oldest son inherits double according to the Torah.
A parent should hit his child according to the Torah, in order to discipline him.
A woman's place is in the home, according to the Torah.
An enemy woman can be captured, shaved, set aside and then (if the Hebrew soldier so desires) forcibly married and raped.
Etc etc etc
We have evolved our interpretations of Torah over history. We dont live exactly the way they lived during the biblical era.
A lot of the norms above were necessary then, not now.
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amother
Salmon
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Fri, Aug 16 2019, 4:59 am
And for all those who say it's against Jewish values.
Do you plan to give the inheritance you receive from your parents to your brothers?
In your own will, do you plan to allot your oldest son the bulk of your inheritance, and let him manage and help out his sisters as he sees fit?
If you answered no to either of these questions, you are doing something as 'anti-Torah' as you claim veganism is.
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