A get | Imamother

gamanit

Sat, Jan 18 2020, 11:42 pm

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

You mean, why should it bother us that a man with no children is encouraged/forced to divorce?

Why doesn't it bother you, should be the question. A woman is left high and dry, abandoned, with no status, no family, no partner. In the old days, it meant she would be thrown back to her father's tent or hovel. No future. Who would marry her after that?

And all this so the man can have children, although there might be a 50% he is infertile anyway??

Think about it for just a minute here; first of all she's not being thrown out with no money. She gets her full kesubah. Second of all, plenty of people married divorced women; she'd be the ideal candidate to step in after someone lost their wife in childbirth. Since a man is only required to divorce an infertile wife if he hasn't had children himself yet, such a woman makes the perfect mother for his kids from his first wife. If she happens to have children after marrying him; all the merrier. Wouldn't you want a 50% chance to have kids vs a 0% chance?

amother

Slategray

Sat, Jan 18 2020, 11:53 pm

gamanit wrote:

Her ketuba money is not enough to sustain her long term, usually. It's not not like she got half the house or half the assets.

Second, remarriage is tough enough for a 30 or 40 year old woman. Her chances, especially in olden days, are lower if she is barren. You think there would be a huge line up of widowers waiting for her? And do you think it's such a good deal for her, to marry a man with 5 little kids and maybe some sullen teens, and become a caretaker and housekeeper overnight? For that would be the urgent reason he's marrying her.

No, I do not think it's worth a 50% chance of the man having a child, if it means a good solid marriage is broken up. The couple each lose a loving partner, and in those days the women became a person with no status and little money, desperate to marry for support - what's good there exactly?

Obviously it's not a total chiyuv, as the Lubavitch Rebbi, for example, stayed with his wife though they were childless, as did many others.

gamanit

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 12:24 am

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

Her kesubah money would be enough to sustain her for several years at least. Being as women generally married at around 16 years old, we're referring to a woman of about 26-32 years old on average. Death in childbirth wasn't so rare. A divorcee was considered to be a far better candidate to marry a widower than a widow who would be bringing in her own children to the marriage which equaled more mouths to feed.

In addition it's not just a 50% chance of the man having a child but for the woman as well. Why should she give up on the chance of ever having a child?

It's only a chiyuv for a couple living in Eretz Yisroel, not in chutz l'aretz.

Mama Bear

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 12:26 am

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

My DH told me that it's very possible that these couples confirmed that it's male factor infertility.

Or it could simply be that we don't hold by this nowadays.

However, the fact that it's even brought down in halacha is very troubling.

In today's day and age I'd say that 90% of couples who are still childless after 10 years it's male factor.
Female infertility issues are almost always possible to fix. Unless it's a uterine issue or premature ovarian failure, ovulation problems shouldnt take over 10 years.
Male factor, unfortunately, is a lot harder to overcome, esp bc IVF is so expensive and it may take multiple tries.

amother

Slategray

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 12:46 am

amother [ Natural ] wrote:

That's not true at all. Men have a biological clock too and for some men it ticks faster than for others.

As an aside, you sound very angry and bitter. While I understand that this issue may be triggering for you, the bitterness does not help your credibility in the least.

Of course men have a biological clock too. However, if you have a couple 35 yrs of age on the brink of divorce, and each want a child/more children - who do you think has not a moment to lose?
Men often naturally father children in their late 40s, 50s and 60s. Women don't.

As for me, I am not bitter in the least. Nor does this issue 'trigger' me - b'h I have no personal connection with any of this.
I have found that there are posters who like to condescendingly accuse others of being triggered and bitter, in order to discredit their argument. Just stay on topic please, and don't throw around personal insults. It does not make you any more credible.

amother

Slategray

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 12:56 am

amother [ Natural ] wrote:

Today there are men who are tied to women who refuse to accept a get, heter meah rabbanim is almost never given in such cases, but we don't care about those men, we only care about the women.

How many men do you personally know like that? They exist, but they are few. I know none.
How many women do you know who are refused a get? I know several, acquaintances of mine, not through any headlines.

Btw, the rabbanut statistics about agunot, which someone mentuoned earlier, are skewed. It takes a long long time for someone to be declared an aguna. A woman can be waiting for a get for 2 yrs, and her dh is willing to give her one if she will pay him 50k for the honor, which she refuses to pay - she won't be listed as an agunah. Rather, the rabbanut will pressure her to just pay the 50k (which may be a lot of money for her) and just get it over with.

amother

Natural

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 1:46 am

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

Why are you assuming that the divorcing couple is 35? An enormous number of divorces happen when the couple is in their 20s. And that's without factoring in that the man is often/ usually older than the women.

amother

Natural

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 1:54 am

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

Two or three off the top of my head.

Women, I know a few abusive women who claimed their husbands refused to give a get. And my friend's cousin refused to accept a get unless she was given everything he had, financially ruining him (she had more money coming into the marriage than he did as well).

Yes it takes a long time but that goes for both genders. It's not unrealistic to say "if you're not divorced within five months that doesn't make you an aguna." Divorce is almost always messy and proceedings can take a couple years. Even for non-Jews, even in civil court. That doesn't make someone an aguna. Just like you would probably not say a man has been refused a get because his wife stipulated that she'll accept it only if he completely cuts ties with his children and he refused (I know a few cases like that, it's more common than you might think).

amother

Slategray

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 2:59 am

Obviously there are also abusive women out there who trap men in unwanted marriages.
I think the whole system needs serious revamping, within the halachic framework, in order to prevent both men and women from being abused.

That said, there is no denying that men have one up on women when it comes to a get. In fact, a lot more than one up:

They are not as stressed out biologically (however old the couple is, the man has more time to have kids. And most divorcing couples are not 24.).
The beit din is all male, so there is a natural slant for them to identify more with men. Most women who have gone through beit din can testify to this.
There is heter meah rabbanim. Maybe not given often, but it's there. Even when not given, it works as a deterrent - a woman knows she can't drag it out forever, because then her dh might try to get the heter.

And, don't forget most divorces are secular. A secular man can just move in with another woman and have more kids, without it majorly harming his divorce proceedings (especially if his wife is the one refusing a get).
A secular woman can't move in with her boyfriend without beit din taking major sanctions against her. She definitely will think a million times before having kids which beit din will declare mamzerim.

So while I agree some men are also victims of the system, on the whole it's women who get the short end of the stick.

amother

Natural

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 3:02 am

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

I agree.

Quote:

The beit din is all male, so there is a natural slant for them to identify more with men. Most women who have gone through beit din can testify to this.

I don't know, for some things men are more sympathetic to women than other women are. And regardless Israel's family courts are almost always biased towards the woman.

Quote:

There is heter meah rabbanim. Maybe not given often, but it's there. Even when not given, it works as a deterrent - a woman knows she can't drag it out forever, because then her dh might try to get the heter.

Not if she knows the system well enough.

Quote:

And, don't forget most divorces are secular. A secular man can just move in with another woman and have more kids, without it majorly harming his divorce proceedings (especially if his wife is the one refusing a get).
A secular woman can't move in with her boyfriend without beit din taking major sanctions against her. She definitely will think a million times before having kids which beit din will declare mamzerim.

Most secular guys don't care about the get in the first place. To them it's a rubber stamp. They will fight in family court and lose but usually not think of withholding the get, which seems to be a purely religious issue.

amother

Slategray

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 3:07 am

amother [ Natural ] wrote:

You'd be surprised. When someone wants to make their ex suffer, they use all the tools.

amother

Slategray

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 3:10 am

As for family court - that's not the discussion here. We are talking about beit din.

There is a reason why they tell women to register for divorce quickly at family court, and why they tell men to run to beit din (in Israel, whoever opens the case first decides where the proceedings will take place).

Beit din is seen as very anti-woman. Is family court anti-man? I don't think so, but it's not the discussion here anyway. That's for another thread.

amother

Natural

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 3:16 am

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

As for family court - that's not the discussion here. We are talking about beit din.

So why are we talking about Israel? Stick to beit din across the world, leave Israel out of it.

Quote:

There is a reason why they tell women to register for divorce quickly at family court, and why they tell men to run to beit din (in Israel, whoever opens the case first decides where the proceedings will take place).

Yes and it has to do with the courts, not the beit din.

Quote:

Beit din is seen as very anti-woman. Is family court anti-man? I don't think so, but it's not the discussion here anyway. That's for another thread.

Seen as is not the same as is. Most women I know who have gone through BD did not find it anti-women at all but very sympathetic and even slightly biased in their favor.
The system in Israel is set up to favor the woman. That's not the discussion here, so let's leave Israel out of it and concentrate on the main point, which is about the fairness of the whole issue in halacha.

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

You'd be surprised. When someone wants to make their ex suffer, they use all the tools.

Fair enough. Just remember that goes both ways and women abuse as much as men do.

malki2

Sun, Jan 19 2020, 6:12 am

amother [ Sienna ] wrote:

A woman cant marry 2 men because then people won't know who the father is.

That’s not the reason at all. The reason is because a woman is a kinyan of her husband. It’s not physical ownership of her body like a slave, but there is some aspect of kinyan. That’s why he gives her the ring and not the other way around. Because he is acquiring her. So a man can legally marry 2 wives because one owner can own two objects. But a woman cannot marry 2 men because one object can’t have 2 owners.