Showing more than a tefach of hair

essie14

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 9:46 am

saw50st8 wrote:

I'm MO but I don't cover my hair, so maybe I am not the person that you are looking for an answer from.

There are many different valid halachic opinions on what and how much you have to cover. Wearing a head covering is a perfectly acceptable halachic opinion.

Do you have a Rabbi that you ask questions to?

If you want to cover more, what's the problem? I live in a MO community where anything goes regarding headcovering and my friends range from no cover, a head covering, just a tefach showing, full sheitel, mitpachat etc...

I am the same. I do cover (not fully) but my friends and neighbors span the entire range. Very diverse community.

lcraighten ↓

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 10:08 am

I am quite surprised at people on here who are saying that covering part of the hair is like not covering it at all, or that it's "Half" a mitzvah and that's not a mitzvah at all. That is totally not true! It's like saying, well if you won't cover your knees, might as well go out naked. I don't understand it at all. Since when is yiddishkeit so black and white, all or nothing. Life is not so clear cut. If you have trouble covering all your hair, be proud of what you do cover! Yes, it's super admirable that you know you still have room to grow in this mitzvah, but don't for one second think that what you are doing is equivalent to doing nothing at all!

Flip Flops

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 11:39 am

amother [ Silver ] wrote:

This is how I feel as someone who covers some of her hair- I'm not saying it’s the truth or anyone has to agree with me, or that this is the opinion of my Rav or of modern orthodoxy- just explaining my position since op asked. I don’t understand the mitzvah at all and find it offensive and oppressive and I’m not sure it’s really a “ mitzvah” but more of a relic of what was considered basic modesty . Nowadays I wear something on my head as a siman that I’m a Jewish married woman, not because I think my hair is erva. I do not think my hair is erva and do not cover it at home even in front of men. This was not meant as an instructive post, just an explanation.

I'm not sure what to respond, but I just feel like I couldn't ignore this post...
Ouch, ouch, ouch. I understand everyone has different challenges and we are each on our own path in life; I understand that different rabbonim may say different things, but this...
To publicly say that one of the most basic mitzvos is not really a mitzva but more of a relic.... and that your hair isn't erva...
This post was painful to read.

zaftigmom

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 12:01 pm

Op, please ignore the posters telling you not to bother doing something if you can't do it perfectly. Please listen to the posters telling you that your sincerity is beautiful and you are allowed to be imperfect. Believing that something is the right thing to do and doing it are two different levels. Allow yourself to grow at your own pace.

amother

↑ Sapphire ↓

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 12:54 pm

tichellady wrote:

So do you think that you can’t talk in front of a man because your voice is erva? If hair is erva then why does the marital status of the hair matter

You know that it means a singing voice is erva. Not a speaking voice. Unless you don't know, in which case there are many, many sources to discuss this.

As to the marital status of the hair, we can launch a spin off on this, but there are many thoughtful answers on this question.

↑ tichellady

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 1:04 pm

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

Actually many sources say it’s any voice

amother

Seashell

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 1:13 pm

I admire your honesty and searching!

What has helped me in many instances is learning about the beauty and brochos that come from keeping mitzvos and specifically the one you are asking about. When you learn about the tremendous brochos you get from covering your hair it may help increase your understanding and desire to fulfill it. I found this very helpful with specifics relating to mikva.

Best wishes!

amother

Aubergine

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 1:13 pm

tichellady wrote:

Actually many sources say it’s any voice

I'm genuinely curious about this. Could you please provide some of the sources that say that a woman's spoken voice is considered erva? As I understand it, men are not allowed to daven, learn, or say berachos in the presence of erva, but I've never heard anyone say that they can't make a beracha or learn if I'm talking in their vicinity.

amother

↑ Sapphire

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 1:39 pm

amother [ Red ] wrote:

Your speaking voice being erva is not a new chiddish. Have we not had many threads here that you are going straight to gehenem if you say g'morning or thank you to a man in the supermarket.
Clearly the precedent has been set.

There are many warnings in gemara about men not overly conversing with women to avoid temptation, but that is NOT what that poster was saying. She said that the woman's speaking voice is erva. That's incorrect. With what you're saying, it's not that the speaking voice is erva, it's that idle chatter with men can lead somewhere else.

For the record, I say hello to everyone, man or woman, and have had conversations with each.

Again, I'm not making any judgement calls, but not lets confuse two completely different ideas. I'm asking for someone to show me one source that a woman's speaking voice is erva. I'm still waiting.

Oh, and there is no "precedent". The world is a big place.

amother

↑ Bisque

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 3:18 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Hello everyone—I’ve been struggling with my level of hair covering and would love people’s thoughts about this.

I’m MO and since I’ve been married I’ve been covering a “kalta” of my hair. And I know other women who cover this much hair or less (some where headbands, etc. or half-tichel).

I’ve really been struggling with why I do this. I know that by Halacha this is not enough of a kisui rosh. Are there any women who also do this level of covering, and if so, how do you personally explain it?

My problem might sound silly because I’ve already said that halachically I know that this is wrong, so the answer is obviously then to do what I know is halachically right, to show no more than a tefach of my hair.

However, I would like to hear from other women who cover their hair in this more lenient way that I described—I would honestly like to know if you, like me, also struggle with why you do it this way.

Really I would love to hear from anyone who has anything to say about this topic and this problem—I’ve only been married for a year now so my habits aren’t set and I’m open to learn more and receive your guidance. Thank you

I do not struggle with the why of why I dont cover all of my hair. I am MO. When I was a newlywed I covered everything. Slowly slowly more and more hair started to get uncovered. Until now, I wear a thick headband type of covering.
I would really uncover completely but have been covering for such a long time (almost 2 decades) that I would feel naked without something on my head.
I am not convinced that covering one's hair is an actual halacha. Ive done research and the makor of this mitzvah in the torah is so completely unconvincing to me (some say it doesnt even mean uncover, but rather to loosen)

amother

↑ Smokey ↓

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 5:34 pm

lcraighten wrote:

Where did you get your semicha? If you don’t have any, you really should speak against a gadol as if you know better

amother

↑ Brunette

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 5:47 pm

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

Just like for some people, being told all the hilchos Shabbos will make them not want to keep any of it. That’s irrelevant. Halacha is halacha.

Not a comparison. It’s like telling someone that if they don’t keep Shabbos exactly the way you do, it’s as if they’re not shomer Shabbos at all.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 5:59 pm

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

I've been hesitating to comment because of the vitriol, but maybe this perspective will help some understand? I recommend the book Hide and Seek: Jewish Women and Hair Covering for a non-judgmental read about different women's experiences with hair covering. I'm a BT in a liberal MO community, and I wasn't sure what I would do when I married. I did some reading on it, but obviously the topic is loaded and (I think) pretty community-dependent, and I wasn't totally satisfied with the sources on the subject for full covering, but I felt that there is still a basis for covering as a sign of marriage and modesty.

I ended up wearing hats most of the time when I'm out and not covering at home, because it seems to fit a suitable level of modesty for me right now. Most women in my community do not cover except for shabbos. I don't believe Judaism is all or nothing.

I was thinking of Hide and Seek myself. Read it years ago and it was the first time I was exposed to the concept of parua meaning disheveled, not uncovered. (Though a. in other places it clearly means uncovered and b. I suppose that those who rely on it if they're being consistent will wear their hair in demure styles?) It is a very interesting and well researched book.

ETA: Just read amother bisque earlier on this page. Baruch shekivanti Wink

Last edited by PinkFridge on Wed, Feb 05 2020, 6:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Wed, Feb 05 2020, 5:59 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

If you want to cover more, what's the problem? I live in a MO community where anything goes regarding headcovering and my friends range from no cover, a head covering, just a tefach showing, full sheitel, mitpachat etc...

Theoretically it shouldn't be a problem, but on some circles wouldn't it make a big statement?