Is entitlement absolute or community dependant

keym

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 9:49 am

I've been wondering about this question. Especially every now and then when threads pop up about support, wealthy parents, chassan and kalla gifts.
Is an individual person a selfish, entitled person to expect something that's a community norm, and to be frustrated when it doesn't happen.
I'm not commenting on the community, but on the individual.

Of course there are things like gifts, support, helping after babies, etc.

In my community, a large majority of children get bussed to and from school from the corner. Are we entitled because our cousins in say Baltimore don't get bussing? Are we allowed to be frustrated if we don't get it?

I feel like we judge other people as entitled if they expect things that aren't typical in OUR INDIVIDUAL community. Without even realizing that many people judge us for the entitlements that they expect.

Thoughts?

Chayalle

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 9:56 am

I think when things are a community standard, usually the lifestyle in that community is adapted to the standard. Like I would imagine that if carpool is expected in Baltimore, then life choices fit that. In Lakewood, someone whose kid does not have bussing has a really hard time, and everyone expects it to be a non-issue because most people have transportation. So with these types of things, I don't think it's entitled.

I grew up pretty simply, and it sometimes boggles my mind that standards are so high today. My teen would like a sweatshirt that costs over $100, because apparently it's pretty standard today (everyone is wearing it.) I'm not running to buy it, but I don't think she's uber spoiled to want what everyone else seems to have.

amother

Fuchsia

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 9:59 am

I'd say definitely community dependent.

Same with abuse. My parents used to get beaten and so did their peers, it was called "discipline" and wasn't even illegal. My parents (and others in their generation -- boomers) didn't like that so they said "we'll just spank our kids" and that was the norm in my generation. My generation (millenials) didn't like that and we don't use corporal punishment at all. If someone in my parents' generation was "only" spanked, they would have considered themselves lucky. If someone in my kids' generation were spanked, they would consider themselves abused. Expectations change based on what your peer group receives.

keym

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 10:04 am

amother Obsidian wrote:

personalities
know many not yet frum yidden who are super entitled and demanding with a victim mentality R"L

Ok. I agree. But that's not what I'm talking about.
If a typical Lakewood girl (because that's what I know) gets engaged and her in-laws, also typical Lakewood type say "we don't hold of gifts" so she doesn't get any jewelry or siddur or machzor or leichter or anything.
She kvetches to someone how she's disappointed.
Is she an entitled selfish brat or is she a regular girl who suffered a disappointment?
In some communities, no gifts from the in-laws is typical. But not in Lakewood.

Chayalle

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 10:14 am

keym wrote:

I would not call her entitled.
And if I inquired about a family for Shidduch purposes and heard that about them, I might choose not to pursue the shidduch for my (not entitled, not even so into jewelry) DD.
But I would be okay if they aren't the type to give every single last gift, and do the best they could.
(to be honest, I don't go for the "we don't hold of" types. Bit rigid.)

Bnei Berak 10

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 10:16 am

keym wrote:

Bussing to school cannot been entitled IMHO.
How else are they supposed to get to school if there are no pavements?
Of course it's frustrating to have to carpool if there isn't any other solution.

amother

Amber

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 10:24 am

keym wrote:

In your specific situation, no the girl is not entitled because there is an expectation in terms of it being a community standard and the in-laws are aware of this but for some arbitrary reason have decided that they alone won't do it.

However, do think that with the specific issue - I.e. gifts - there is also a possibility of the in-laws wanting to do something else and perhaps that could be discussed. Maybe the money otherwise spent on gifts would be better used if just given as a fund. The girl herself might have different priorities and tastes - other than an engagement and wedding ring. It does seem a bit ridiculous to purchase expensive stuff that might not be what the girl likes, wants or needs.

amother

Birch

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 10:26 am

keym wrote:

Did you ever say to one of you kids, "I don't care if everyone else's parents....." ?

Kind of the same thing. Just because there is a norm doesn't mean everyone must go along with it.

Disappointment and frustration is normal. Extreme anger and bitterness is not.

Chayalle

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 10:31 am

amother Birch wrote:

Sure. I tell my girls I'm not the Rosenbergs. I don't know what goes thru Mrs. Rosenberg's head when she makes parenting decisions. I can only parent like myself.

But those are for details. They don't must have every item that everyone else has, or do every activity everyone else does.....At the same time, I don't expect my kids to live in this community and be extremely different from everyone else. (not running to buy $100 lululemon sweatshirt, but she did get something similar from Zara for 1/4 of the price.)

I do agree with you about frustration and disappointment. At some point, extreme anger and bitterness eats away at the joy you can have in life from whatever you do have. If someone experiences that continually, it would be in their best interest to get whatever help they can to move on.

Bnei Berak 10

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 10:32 am

keym wrote:

I think it's written (Gmara?) that kallah should get jewelry.
I once asked my friend's DIL (who sells jewelry from her home in order to keep prices low) if there are people who don't give jewelry. She said NO. It's 100% non-negotionable.
Litvish chareidi kallot today don't get any diamonds but CZ stone.

amother

Aquamarine

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 10:33 am

amother Fuchsia wrote:

The people who don't consider themselves abused were still abused. Their brains show the same trauma.

Alternative

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 10:44 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

First of all, the gmara is not halacha.
Second, of course there are hundreds of thousands of kallahs who don’t get jewellery. She meant that in her homogeneous little community it’s non-negotiable. Not everywhere.

Very few people I know got any jewelery from the in laws. The boy himself bought a ring (not his mom) and that was it.

mig100

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 10:44 am

keym wrote:

You make a lot of very good points .

I love your logic. great post KEYM

mig100

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 10:47 am

keym wrote:

neither.

She is a kallah and emotionally vulnerable

Bnei Berak 10

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 10:48 am

Alternative wrote:

Correct, she meant in her community and of course there are circles where jewelry isn't a thing.

keym

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 10:52 am

Heres my problem.
I've noticed a trend on Imamother. Someone posts a kvetch. How no one helps her with her baby postpartum. How her parents or inlaws aren't giving community standards. Or anything really. And she gets beaten down, called entitled.
Now I think it's ok to gently tell that OP that there are some people in the world at large don't have that particular benefit.
But is it fair, nice or particularly helpful to lambaste a woman whose mother isn't watching her kids postpartum, whose in-laws refuse to give her leichter, or whose bus route didn't get picked up and they're stuck carpooling in Lakewood.
It's ok to acknowledge that they aren't actually entitled brats, just disappointed humans.

amother

Burgundy

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 10:55 am

I think it’s a few different points. It’s ok to be disappointed and vent, that does not make you entitled. It’s not ok to expect everything in life to be perfect even if those things are community norms. It’s like the parenting method of validating your kid but sticking to no. I know you want to play outside and feel sad about that, but it’s bedtime now. We need to teach our kids to be resilient and to expect life to be full of disappointments and we can also be empathetic when it happens.

amother

Forestgreen

Tue, Nov 29 2022, 11:03 am

keym wrote:

Of course it is frustrating to not have bussing (spoken as someone who lives in Baltimore and carpools). I think the issue is, how do you deal with those feelings?

I think it's not a healthy mentality with anything on life to say "this person got something and it's not fair that I didn't get!"

One of my kids got a prize at school and another didn't. Of course there was kvetching. "They got a prize and I didn't! Mommy, you need to also give me a prize!"

I explained to the child that they are different people, and they are not always going to get exactly the same things in life.

So feelings of frustration or disappointment are normal, but to stay upset, hold a grudge, or feel that you deserve something just because someone or everyone else got, is not healthy behavior, and hopefully is something that doesn't last beyond early childhood.