Financial protection for mothers and daughters

chen

Sun, Oct 30 2005, 11:40 am

this is in response to amother whose husband has pushed her and hit her (pregnancy and abuse thread). as it is somewhat tangential to her thread, I am starting a new one.

memorize this: every woman should have the ability to support herself. that doesn't mean that every woman will **need** to support herself, but it does means that every girl should have an education and a marketable skill. ( which is an excellent argument against teenage marriages.)

furthermore, every woman should have a bank account and money in her own name. every woman. not just a joint account with dh, but a separate a/c that is hers alone. not trusting? not romantic? try clear-eyed and realistic.

how many women are trapped in abusive, even dangerous, relationships because they literally have no means of getting out? (Yes, there are women who are wealthy in their own right who still remain in abusive relationships, but they have options that are not open to women who depend on their partners for every cent.) how many women have woken up one morning to discover that the mr. has cleaned out the joint bank accounts and skipped out of town? Or gambled, or drank, or spent it all? or, for that matter, lost his job, got stiffed by a client, or keeled over dead through no fault of his own? a quarter of a mil in the will after probate doesn't do a widow a lick of good in the interim. she needs money in her own name, now.

ein somchin al hannes. we buy fire extinguishers for our home, life insurance for our families, and accident insurance for our cars. we owe it to our daughters to provide them with "self insurance" of their own.

shanie5

Sun, Oct 30 2005, 11:54 am

a parent here complained to me "why does my daughter have to know the chumash from the begining of the yr to the end? she knows how o make a good shabbos!!"

there was no way that I could respond to that- cuz she wouldnt listen to me anyway. but I agree w/ you 200%

having the ability to support oneself is also great for the self esteem, which can help a marraige too!

Motek

Sun, Oct 30 2005, 1:16 pm

chen wrote:

which is an excellent argument against teenage marriages.

sure, and I know dozens of singles over 35, over 40, who earn nice money, some have more than one degree too

Quote:

how many women are trapped in abusive, even dangerous, relationships because they literally have no means of getting out?

I don't know. How many frum women?

Quote:

how many women have woken up one morning to discover that the mr. has cleaned out the joint bank accounts and skipped out of town?

I really have no idea. I would guess a teeny-tiny amount. Why, do you know?

Quote:

ein somchin al hannes. we buy fire extinguishers for our home, life insurance for our families, and accident insurance for our cars. we owe it to our daughters to provide them with "self insurance" of their own.

you quote a Chazal to support your point

can you quote some rabbonim/poskim who say support your points:

1) girls ought to learn how to support themselves (how?)
2) girls shouldn't marry in their teens
3) wives should have their own bank accounts
4) thou shalt buy life insurance and fire extinguishers (car insurance is legally required)

ElTam

Sun, Oct 30 2005, 2:23 pm

I don't know about Motek's first three questions, but I know in the Chofetz Chaim Heritage Foundation's Tisha B'Av audio/video presentation either Rabbi Frand or Rabbi Krohn talked about the need to buy life insurance and quoted Torah sources. He discussed whether propecting oneself against possible problems was a lack of bitachon and gave over the answer that it was not a lack, but part of our histadlus.

I didn't take the tape with me, but maybe someone who did can give more detail.

I do agree with the point of this thread in terms of that women should have the ability to support themselves in case C"V something happens to the husband, no matter what it is. Maybe they can gain that training before they get married; for many it may be better if they do it, in the first few years of marriage.

I can't say I would agree with having separate bank accounts. Joint bank accounts will solve the problem of the husband C"V getting sick or dying. If you are in a situation where a separate account is needed because of abuse or gambling or whatever, having a separate account is just going to give a false sense of security and doesn't address the underlying problems with the relationship, which need to be worked out. You can have how ever many dollars in the bank, but a spouse who is going to hurt you financially is going to hurt you financially. If you are married to them, it's possible.

And Motek, surely you aren't arguing against fire extinguishers?

ElTam

Sun, Oct 30 2005, 2:56 pm

Quote:

Quote:
how many women are trapped in abusive, even dangerous, relationships because they literally have no means of getting out?

Motek wrote:

Quote:

I don't know. How many frum women?

Enough that I know of at least two national programs aimed at helping frum abused women. Enough that our local Jewish shelter home (frum) is currently starting the process of moving to a new facility because they can't currently meet the needs of frum Jewish women who need to leave their abusive spouses and have nowhere else to go.

roza

Sun, Oct 30 2005, 4:37 pm

Motek wrote:

let's approach these questions the other way: where in the Torah will you find that the above four actions are forbidden? they are permissible.
these are the ways of the world. (gashmius is ruchnius by a jew)

I would add to the first post that the girls should develop their G-d given talents and find their passions. (it can be anything from Torah study to business) and get education that will allow her to get a well paying job in her area of interest.

roza

Sun, Oct 30 2005, 4:39 pm

hisorerus wrote:

I don't think money is the reason why they don't leave- often their husbands have threatened them, they need protection. Also, even if you have financial resources, it's not easy to pick up and establish a new life! These places provide support, not just money.

but being selfsufficient will make it easier for women to leave an abusive relationship sooner then later.

shoy18

Sun, Oct 30 2005, 5:27 pm

I agree with Chen 1000% thier is no reason why a woman/girl should have no skills other than home making.
Unfortunatly I have a sil that was married to horribly abusive man and she had no means of supporting herself and she stayed married for 8 years becasuse she was to scared but finally with alot of help she got divorced and she has basically no skills and she is stuck rasing a child in a tiny apt with a very small amout of child support and cant pay rent, (bh someone is paying for her) and she cant even use a computer so she is very limited to what she can do to earn a living she lives day to day

my hub told me to get my own acoount so that I will have my own money to spend as a I please, why is that wrong?

whomever said "it isnt against halacha" is comeplty right, these things chen mentioned cant hurt anyone so why not?

cindy324

Sun, Oct 30 2005, 6:09 pm

Motek, I'd love to know.....which world are you living in? Surely not in mine, in which many many frum women are being abused, and way too many men have a gambling prob, so much so that women I know are having trouble paying the bills. As much as you'd like to have a rosy view of frum men (and women) there's plenty of abuse to go around, but that all must be a misconception , us "frum" people are not like that! Rolling Eyes

Mandy

Sun, Oct 30 2005, 8:45 pm

Quote:

I can't say I would agree with having separate bank accounts.

I have a discretionary account. My paycheck goes into my account and we decide how much of my paycheck I will transfer to help pay the bills from the joint account. It is a very, very good thing. I don't need to account for every cent I spend, I feel like my money and my tzedakos are mine.

klotzkashe

Sun, Oct 30 2005, 11:44 pm

While I woudl definitely say that a woman having some marketable skill is definitely valued (if not for divorce then possibly for c'v reasons that would make her have to work ie. illness in family etc. we should never know of such trials). I would however, say that preparing our daughters for situations such as this shoudln't involve having to open separate accounts and creating such 'pre-nuptial' type of settings whereby spouses seem to 'predict' divorce. I would rather prepare my daughter for a) a loving husband and getting ready to meet someone who IS trustworth, who IS a mentch and then iy'h she won't get into such a mess. b) I would prepare her by making sure she has some possible skills with which to get employed.

I do not deny that these situations happen in our community - in fact I have a relative in a similar situation - HOWEVER I would not gear my daughters up for such events by encouraging them to have separatae holdings from their hsubands.

amother in the preg/abuse thread is severely disadvantaged because her husband is the only account holder. I don't know of any woman in her right mind who would have agreed to this being hte case to begin with. if she works she could easily open her own account and get her pay put into there - she should immediately rectify this situation - no woman should have to be asking her husband for money for groceries etc. bc she has no access to the funds. ridiculous!

shanie5

Mon, Oct 31 2005, 5:13 am

alot of us have our own accounts that have nothing to do w/ "protection". I opened my own cuz I did not like the way my dh balanced the checkbook. I was allowed to use it, but w/ his system I never knew how much money was there. so I opened my own to make life easier for me.

the same type of reasoning can be used to have a separate account for any woman. its just money she can use as she feels the need to-whether its clothing, food or dr. bills. the added plus is that it is there 'just in case' too.

also, its hard to keep a balanced checkbook w/ 2 people writing checks out of it all the time. u have to constantly coordinate who wrote checks when.

ElTam

Mon, Oct 31 2005, 10:15 am

Just wanted to add that I talked about this subject with a friend of mine who is a Jewish social worker who works in the frum community, including with abused women. She said (I'm paraphrasing) that virtually all abusers use money as a means of controlling their victims, to make sure they don't have choices and options and to monitor/control their day-to-day activities.

I asked her if, in her 20+ years of experience in this field, she sees any difference in this area between frum people and not frum people, and she said no. While frum people may be less susceptible to this problem, once it is in place, it is the same dynamic in either type of family. Abusers have the same "tools" no matter what faith they supposedly subscribe to.

Disclaimer: Of course, this is one person's experience, seen through her own biases and filters. I don't have statistics on the subject, but thought this was an interesting addition to the discussion.

Motek

Thu, Nov 03 2005, 5:15 pm

a kesuba is a one-sided pre-nup document in which the man's obligations are laid out (there's a thread with the actual wording)

Quote:

I would however, say that preparing our daughters for situations such as this shoudln't involve having to open separate accounts and creating such 'pre-nuptial' type of settings whereby spouses seem to 'predict' divorce. I would rather prepare my daughter for a) a loving husband and getting ready to meet someone who IS trustworth, who IS a mentch and then iy'h she won't get into such a mess

agree
and despite the tragic cases that exist, I want to live my life positively, rather than prepare myself and family for disaster

it's one thing to buy a fire extinguisher (fine with me) and keep it handy

you're not extinguishing on a daily basis, nor do you plan to

having all girls develop a marketable skill solely for the purpose of being able to leave a horrible marriage or being able to provide if tragedy strikes sounds awful to me

sorry to hear the world you live in cindy324, is that awful

maybe naive, maybe a different mindset

as far as "not relying on a miracle" - the examples given have nothing to do with not relying on miracles

Quote:

let's approach these questions the other way: where in the Torah will you find that the above four actions are forbidden? they are permissible.

the reason I asked for rabbonim/poskim to support her point is because she quoted a (irrelevant, I think) Torah source

so it's reasonable to ask whether rabbis agree with her assessment

of course it's permissible for a woman to learn a trade, and for you to purchase a fire extinguisher and life insurance, but to deliberately postpone marriage? In the chasidishe/yeshivish/Lubavitch world this is strongly discouraged.