I dont get it | Imamother

happymom

Sun, Jun 29 2008, 11:07 am

I just dont understand why parents think teaching kids wrong behavior by another wrong behavior will teach them anything good,.

for example, if a child isnt listening, why is slapping them (a bad behavior, it is not a good thing to hurt others) going to teach them anything good???

If a child uses bad language, why is putting soap in thier mouth (a ver negative thing, causing suffering in a way) going to teach the chikd anything positve other then doing hurtful things to people when they do things that bohter them?)

If a child doesnt share, why is grabbing (something wre tell our kids never to do) something that is postive way to teach? it isnt... and we should realize that if we want our kids to act respectful, nice and calm, we have to act the same.

if we yell, grab and smack, that is exacty what they will do because actions speak louder then words.

if we teach, guide them, and model proper behavior, then they will learn respect, and the proper way to act.

montrealmommy

Sun, Jun 29 2008, 1:57 pm

For the most part I agree with you. With respect to the soap in the mouth, in our home, it is a last resort when all other forms of modelling, discipine, and punishment have not worked. We also only apply it when we feel the child is old enough to understand not to use that language/word. Lastly we explain to our child that since his mouth is saying dirty words than we have to clean his mouth, just like when our hands are dirty we clean our hands. We will use either liquid toothpaste or dishsoap (which we have checked is not dangerous) diluted and spread on their lips - for 1 min, then dc gets to rinse it off and rinse his mouth. It is not an every day reaction (IMO) but when used highly efficient and effective. Yes, he doens't like it. Yes, it upsets him. If it didn't then it wouldn't be a punishment. I am not trying to convince you this is a good method, only explaining why we feel it is one worth keeping in the parenting artillery belt.

Just to elaborate, with a different perspective, we do the same thing with their toys. If they continue to throw a toy or color on walls, then we remove the toy or crayon explaining that the toy/crayon is not behaving or listening to the rules, so IT needs a time out (this usually really upsets them becuae we took away what they wanted). When they feel that they can cooperate with toy/crayon to listen to the rules, then they may "play" together again. And so on....

I was raised this way, even into my teens. When I had my driver's license, I would borrow my parents' car. The car always had to be home by 12:00am. AS I got older and my curfew either extended or dissappeared, the car's curfew didn't change. My parent's would often tell my b and I, if your friends want to followyou home, you are welcome to go again, but my car must be in the driveway by midnight!

As for giving a 'petch' I agree, if I am always telling my child not to hit, then I hit him I am teaching a doublestandard and telling him that when you are bigger then it's ok to hit - which IMO it is not! and so on.

Clarissa

Sun, Jun 29 2008, 2:04 pm

I was about to comment that I imagine that nobody has used that washing-the-mouth-out-with-soap discipline in about 40 years, and then I saw montrealmommy's post, so I stand corrected. I must say I'm surprised. There's a big difference between saying a bad word and needing to have hands or face cleaned as a basic part of cleanliness and disease prevention, and I don't think that washing should ever be associated with something negative, like a punishment. I think it sends the wrong message, and won't encourage kids to get clean on their own, as something positive. Also, I think using bad words isn't the same as having a dirty mouth. Bad words demonstrate not only bad behavior and intent, but a lack of effort to find the right words to express anger or frustration. I think it would be preferable to stop the child, tell them it's wrong, and help them to find the right words to express themselves.

If you're opposed to hitting, you should be opposed to forcibly washing a child's mouth or lips in an unpleasant way, which also can be interpreted as a physically aggressive punishment.

happymom

Sun, Jun 29 2008, 2:24 pm

I think that we have to treat our kids with respect even when diciplining or them. angry teens dont just come from nothing. forcing something into someones mouth, especially something not edible imo is never ever ok. no matter how well it works. slapping really hard when a child does something wrong also works. locking them in a closet keeps them out of trouble. does that mean its ok??? no it doesnt/.

montrealmommy

Sun, Jun 29 2008, 4:54 pm

I understand your POV's but, in our home this is what works. This is, as I mentioned a last resort. Not for stam a bad word, but for intesntionally using a word that has already been explained, defined, etc... and other, more proper words have been provided. This is only when my dc is purpousefully using a foul word, in the right context, after being taught, disciplined, explained etc...

B"H we (dh and I) both agree on how to discipline and have not used this much (only once or twice) and I repeat it is only when all other methods (including time) have not ceased the usage of the foul language. My dc is very literal and from the few instances where we have used similar methods of discipline (see previous post) he gets the message very very quickly. He has not shown any sign of a neg. associaiton with cleaning/cleanliness, in fact he is quite the neat freak.

I do not believe in hitting becuase I am constantly telling my children to use their words and not their hands/feet.etc... So for me hitting/patching is a different form of discipline, which I do not use.

As for edible, as I mentioned we only use liquid toothpaste or dishsoap, both of which are edible and non-toxic, although neither is pleasant.

Just since you both mentioned it, we do not force my dc when this form of dicsiple has been used. He is warned many times that this will be his punishment/consequence if he uses x - and the one time I had to use it, he was told to please come to the batheroom to receive his consequence, he did so compliantly and I explained that now I am going to put some soap (liquid toothpaste) on his lips becuase of x. and he stood there and took his consequence. yes ,he fidgeted and cried becuase it tasted yucky, but I did not restrain or hold him down and force him.

mimivan

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 1:12 am

happymom wrote:

You are right, happymom...but some habits are hard to break.

I think parents do this because they feel that their hitting etc..is on a different level. Also, if one begins chinuch by instilling fear in their kids, this fear must be maintained by any means possible, until the parent ends up chas v'shalom potching or yelling alot . I say "has to be maintained" but this isn't true...however, many parents are too afraid to "reinvent the wheel" and start their chinuch all over again from square one.

I am not saying they are right...but you said you "don't get it" and unfortunately, I do understand this thinking, but I am trying constantly to work on it and improve.

It is disturbing how easy it is to fall into this trap. And sometimes force can be the quickest most "convenient" way, although I agree it is quite harmful in the long term.

Those of us raised the "Old fashioned way" can sometimes have a hard time changing habits and becoming more mindful to our children's needs. That's why I like your posts happymom, and would like to visit your blog..

mimivan

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 1:19 am

happymom wrote:

its so good that u are asking for what to do! that is really admirable! many people just do whatever comes natural and then try to justify it. asking and finding out the correct way to make a situation better is what we should all do, so we can all learn from u Wink

I wish I had a direct quote for this, but Manis Friedman said if our reactions as parents are automatic, they are usually the wrong reactions..

The ideal approach is to be constantly mindful...but it isn't easy...especially if one did not grow up this way.

happymom

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 1:37 am

thanks mimivan! and I think many of us were raised the old fashioned way. every time we break habits its really an amazing thing.
I once heard someone say this:

what was the whole miracle of krias yam suf? that the water went against its nature and stood like a wall.

we can create miracles every day in our own lives and that is what we are suppose to do. we do this by going against our nature. so for example if one mother has a nature to yell at her kids (or bad habit, whatever itr is..) and DOESNT yell, that is a miracle! and every day we should try to create as many miracles like this as we can. it is a constant struggle but everything we do really does matter.

Mommastuff

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 1:57 pm

Maybe this generation is more sensitive than the last. I got my mouth washed out (only once) when I was younger. I wasn't abused, it didn't traumatize me and I still remember why I got it done. I was told it was to wash my mouth out from what I had said.

I also got potched sometimes when I misbehaved. I wasn't abused. yes, I was sore sometimes, but I wasn't hurt, and I got the point. I was ony hit on the hand or tush (never on the face or head) whichever matched the "crime" that I did.

My dh is very against hitting so I'm not using that as a form of disipline, and I think it's hypicritical if you're teaching kids not to hit. But I'm not againist hitting.

Hitting while angry is assur so if I were to hit, it would have to be when I'm not angry. (Being that my kids do things to get on my nerves, I couldn't hit! Wink

)

happymom

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 3:26 pm

itting while angry is assur so if I were to hit, it would have to be when I'm not angry. (Being that my kids do things to get on my nerves, I couldn't hit! Wink

that is exaclty why noone should hit. we are not on the level to hit when calm (and by the time we are calm, hitting wiould be totally wrong because it wouldnt be close enough to what happened and wouldnt be effective) all the people I know who say they hit when they are calm. its just not true, its not possible. they get upset or annoyed so they hit