Unethical comment from doctor.

Ema of 5

Fri, Apr 28 2023, 3:46 pm

amother Offwhite wrote:

So to counter a comment that overstepped boundaries (debatable because many times drs who are familiar with our community will say these things just to keep us informed) then she should do a much worse thing and become a moser?? How far have we fallen?

She wasn’t his patient! He had no business “keeping her informed.”

amother

DarkGreen

Fri, Apr 28 2023, 3:49 pm

amother Offwhite wrote:

You’ve clearly never had a complicated medical journey and for that I envy you. I don’t think it’s mesira

amother

Lightpink

Fri, Apr 28 2023, 3:51 pm

amother Offwhite wrote:

Ive seen that word on here before- whats a moser?
As an aside, why do we always have to protect other yidden from their own wrong doing? if a non frum doctor said this to me id file a complaint too

amother

Fri, Apr 28 2023, 3:54 pm

Regarding the topic of mesirah, here’s my opinion. I did think about doing something about That, maybe filing a complaint with the doctors office. Mainly so he wouldn’t do it again. But then I thought he might lose his job because of it and I don’t want that. I just want him to be cautious not to do it again.

Ema of 5

Fri, Apr 28 2023, 3:54 pm

amother Lightpink wrote:

Ive seen that word on here before- whats a moser?
As an aside, why do we always have to protect other yidden from their own wrong doing? if a non frum doctor said this to me id file a complaint too

A moser is someone who “tells on” another Jew. There are halachos involved which I am not familiar with, but the bottom line is that sometimes not only is it ok to tell, but sometimes it’s a must.

amother

Offwhite

Fri, Apr 28 2023, 4:04 pm

amother DarkGreen wrote:

You’ve clearly never had a complicated medical journey and for that I envy you. I don’t think it’s mesira

You clearly have no idea who I am. I honestly don’t think that what I said needs to be backed with personal experience, but if it makes you happy, here my victim card: I’ve had a degenerative disease of the bone for the past 20 years involving multiple major surgeries from the time I was 12 until now and intense chronic pain and disability. I have also had 4 life threatening pregnancies where I was hospitalized or on complete bedrest for the entirety of my pregnancy. As a teenager, I was a regular in the pediatric ward of the hospital so much so that they knew me well from all my surgeries. Don’t tell me I haven’t had complicated medical journeys.
I also believe that the comment the Dr made was inappropriate and would have gotten me very upset. But I can’t for the life of me understand what would bring someone to be oiver the severe issur of mesirah for something that is clearly not a medical mistake or abuse

singleagain

Fri, Apr 28 2023, 4:06 pm

amother Offwhite wrote:

But I can’t for the life of me understand what would bring someone to be oiver the severe issur of mesirah for something that is clearly not a medical mistake or abuse

Bc the doctor is not talking about medical care. It is beyond the scope of their experience. Unless doctors are trained to give religious advice they shouldn't offer that. I don't know what's considered abuse... But it could be on the road to coercion.

amother

Indigo

Fri, Apr 28 2023, 4:09 pm

Obviously I don’t know your full story but I am a little confused as to why your husband is getting genetic testing because you tested + for BRCA? You would still have a 50% chance of passing down the BRCA gene to your baby because if your BRCA.
Unless you meant while doing BRCA testing you discovered something else. Maybe the doc just wanted to make sure that you understood everything thoroughly, but I can hear how you would be taken aback

amother

Offwhite

Fri, Apr 28 2023, 4:16 pm

singleagain wrote:

I simply don’t agree. I feel like OP may have felt like the Dr was telling her what to do, but it’s very likely he was just informing! I’ve had my drs tell me things in the past like “I know that a lot of people in your community ask a rabbi before that” and I am grateful. Thank you for telling me it might be a shaila. I try to be a yarei shamayim and do the right thing. So I’ll ask to make sure it’s right. I do know it’s not considered abuse. It’s just not nice. But abuse? We’re becoming the boy who cried wolf here
I do believe many people are not so informed of the severity of mesira.

amother

DarkGreen

Fri, Apr 28 2023, 4:22 pm

I once sat next to my therapist at my aunts simcha (oops) I pretended not to know her. She did not offer me the same courtesy. I was advised that it was ok to call the state because of the severity of the infraction.
I think that a doctor needs to stay in his or her lane. Hashkafic questions are not to be addressed past “be advised that in the past rabbi x is a good resource on these issues “
Then if the patient chooses to disregard the doctor has no business pushing the issue.
Regardless of how many back surgeries one has had, issues of genetics are extremely loaded and it’s best not to make comments such as “ how low have we fallen “ to a woman who is clearly hurting
And to OP you will be ok regardless of how not ok you feel about the situation

amother

Steel

Fri, Apr 28 2023, 4:25 pm

amother Seagreen wrote:

There are many times that people are ignorant that something may be halachically questionable and I think he just wanted to make sure that you were aware about it. I would be very thankful.

I’m in agreement. It’s like (I know, not exactly like) if someone would post here, “I found fresh raspberries on sale and bought a bunch; anyone have any good recipes to share?”
And someone would say something like, “Are you aware they are known to be heavily infested and there’s really no way to check them?”
Some people would say, “MYOB”, or “That wasn’t the question being asked…”, while others would be grateful to have been informed.

And now I’m waiting for the comment that is sure to come: “How are you comparing a DOCTOR to a FRUIT???”
Which would be missing the point.

amother

Offwhite

Fri, Apr 28 2023, 4:26 pm

amother DarkGreen wrote:

Just letting you know that the comment was not in response to the OP, but to a person who was advising her. And way to to reduce my genetic disease to back surgeries… okay…

amother

IndianRed

Fri, Apr 28 2023, 4:27 pm

ShishKabob wrote:

I wouldn’t call it unethical, more like overstepping his boundaries. However, maybe he was trying to inform you that it may be problematic Halacha wise, which you may have not been aware of. Hugs op!

This
FYI- I believe if you carry the braca gene there is a 20% chance of getting cancer
DH has metastatic breast cancer
His mom had breast cancer
His dad had colon cancer
All his uncles and aunts on both sides had some type of cancer
His grandmother had breast cancer
Guess what
NO GENETIC COMPONENT
He’s been tested 3 x already
No Brca 1
No Brca 2
No ——- there’s a 3rd one I forget the name
Absolutely nothing on the gardent360

Fox

Fri, Apr 28 2023, 4:27 pm

Here's how I would handle it.

Wait a finite period of time for the purpose of getting back the results and calming down.

Your husband should speak with the doctor or possibly even write a letter making the following points:

* "We appreciate that you want to make your patients aware of halachic pitfalls connected to certain tests, but asking if we've spoken to a rav or asked a shaila is going too far. It is enough to simply mention to Jewish patients that there are halachic issues; if they wish to consult their rav, they will do so."

* "Likewise, speaking to the spouse of a patient regarding halachic or hashkafic concerns is inappropriate. It is enough to say to the patient him/herself, 'Just so you know, I've had situations with this test in the past where there were halachic questions.' The patient may then decide how to proceed."

* "You are obviously a very caring physician, and we thank you for this. We appreciate that you are aware of halachic/hashkafic issues that can arise in medical testing and are able to alert your patients to such issues. That said, anything beyond mentioning the existence of such issues to the patient crosses a boundary that made us very uncomfortable and might have even more severe consequences with a patient who didn't recognize the chesed behind the action."

Let's face it: not all physicians excel at interacting with patients. I, too, have had tons of situations where a doctor/nurse was trying to be sensitive to halachic/hashkafic concerns and just botched it beyond belief.

Think of this as an opportunity to help a fellow Jew do something better. But it's probably a good thing if he catches the hint that you consider his actions egregious enough to cause real problems for him with a patient less kindhearted than you.

amother

Jetblack

Fri, Apr 28 2023, 4:31 pm

I'm sorry. I think he didn't say it in the most helpful way and I'm not sure a rav would pasken like he says. BUT it doesn't even make sense for your husband to test if your BRCA Positive. BRCA is not like some diseases like cystic fibrosis where you need two parents to pass on the gene and there's a 25% chance each pregnancy will result in cystic fibrosis. If only one parent has BRCA gene there's a 50% chance each pregnancy will get the gene. (You should probably go to a different genetic counselor.) So it's not necessary for your husband to test himself for BRCA. You can do IVF for BRCA. I'm not sure why your dr thinks a rav wouldn't allow it?