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Forum
-> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
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amother
Butterscotch
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 Tue, May 23 2023, 3:35 pm
| amother Zinnia wrote: | If you want to discuss high-quality daycares, then we can do that.
But we need to be clear that the daycares we are discussing as mothers, on this forum - the ones in our communities - do not qualify as high-quality according to the objective standards set out in the studies. Meaning, the daycares almost all of us send to fall into the category of daycares which create sky-high cortisol levels in almost all the children, attachment issues in many of them, and behavioral regressions in almost all the children.
I am not just referring to unlicensed daycares. The licensed daycares where I live do not meet the standards set out in the studies for "high-quality" childcare centers. They simply do not. Did you read the criteria? Do your licensed centers provide all of those things? For instance my local licensed daycare center will have trained providers but the child-adult ratio is too high for it to qualify as high-quality. It has a good curriculum but its space is too small to qualify as a high-quality center. Etc.
What you define as "unharmed" is not necessarily "unharmed." You would be better to define it as "not visibly harmed." A lot of the harm does not appear right away or appears so gradually that you don't realize it until much later.
I agree that most parents send because they need full-time childcare. That's why I said if you have to send then that is what you do, don't feel guilty for doing what you have to do.
I do think it is important to state out loud that even our licensed childcare centers are not high quality, that children in medium- or low-quality centers do far better at home with a good enough parent than they do in a childcare center, and that children who attend high-quality daycare centers are still likely to suffer for it, but less so and the benefits may come close to balancing the damage.
I feel it is important to say these things because even if our generation sends to these daycares because we have no choice, if we keep talking about these issues and raising awareness, things may change and our younger siblings and/or our children may have more choices while raising their own children. If we don't discuss these things because they make us feel guilty then we become partners in perpetuating the problem. |
Your usage of the word ‘we’ as in ‘the daycares we discuss on imamother’ is too broad to be meaningful. I can only speak to my child’s daycare. But it most definitely qualifies and high quality (yes by meeting the criteria laid out) which is why I’ve sent numerous children nearly continuously since 2015. Yes I pay a mighty fortune for it. High quality childcare is an expensive endeavor but one that is worth it to me. I forgo most other luxuries (considered necessities by many on imamother) so that I can pay for it, and even then I take money out of savings. I don’t owe you or anyone any explanation or justification of my choices but I dislike that you’re painting a broad swath when really that doesn’t allow for the individual experience and I think that’s wrong
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amother
Dodgerblue
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Tue, May 23 2023, 3:43 pm
| amother Zinnia wrote: | If you want to discuss high-quality daycares, then we can do that.
But we need to be clear that the daycares we are discussing as mothers, on this forum - the ones in our communities - do not qualify as high-quality according to the objective standards set out in the studies. Meaning, the daycares almost all of us send to fall into the category of daycares which create sky-high cortisol levels in almost all the children, attachment issues in many of them, and behavioral regressions in almost all the children.
I am not just referring to unlicensed daycares. The licensed daycares where I live do not meet the standards set out in the studies for "high-quality" childcare centers. They simply do not. Did you read the criteria? Do your licensed centers provide all of those things? For instance my local licensed daycare center will have trained providers but the child-adult ratio is too high for it to qualify as high-quality. It has a good curriculum but its space is too small to qualify as a high-quality center. Etc.
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3 providers for 10 children up to 18 months is my local standard. That's close enough to 1:3 for me.
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amother
Begonia
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Tue, May 23 2023, 4:30 pm
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Zinnia your posts are so on target and really are helpful to so many! Thank you.
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amother
Begonia
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Tue, May 23 2023, 4:32 pm
| amother Blushpink wrote: | | Not sure if this was for me or not. But I see them plenty during the night. Co sleep a lot. And once my toddler starts to sleep through the night I will definitely try my best to pick them up early from daycare (I’ll have more time to do stuff at night since I’ll be getting more sleep). And my toddler goes to sleep late. After 8 pm. Plenty of time in the evenings to connect. I don’t feel rushed at all in the evenings. And weekends etc. |
They go to sleep past 8 and are up to be at daycare at 7? What time do you pick up from daycare? It’s so great that you cosleep.
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amother
Zinnia
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Tue, May 23 2023, 4:35 pm
| amother Butterscotch wrote: | | Your usage of the word ‘we’ as in ‘the daycares we discuss on imamother’ is too broad to be meaningful. I can only speak to my child’s daycare. But it most definitely qualifies and high quality (yes by meeting the criteria laid out) which is why I’ve sent numerous children nearly continuously since 2015. Yes I pay a mighty fortune for it. High quality childcare is an expensive endeavor but one that is worth it to me. I forgo most other luxuries (considered necessities by many on imamother) so that I can pay for it, and even then I take money out of savings. I don’t owe you or anyone any explanation or justification of my choices but I dislike that you’re painting a broad swath when really that doesn’t allow for the individual experience and I think that’s wrong |
That's amazing. Outstanding.
Can you appreciate that your daycare is of a rare breed and that you are able to pay for it is an extremely great privilege? Most people on here sending to daycares can't afford to send to one like yours, which checks all the boxes. Or, there are none like that in their geographic area (including licensed daycares).
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amother
Zinnia
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Tue, May 23 2023, 4:38 pm
| amother Dodgerblue wrote: | | 3 providers for 10 children up to 18 months is my local standard. That's close enough to 1:3 for me. |
And does it check the other boxes as well? Because the child-caregiver ratio is super important but not enough, on its own, to put a daycare into the "high-quality" category according to the studies. So a daycare in your locality that checks that box might still fall into the category of daycares which does more harm than good.
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amother
Zinnia
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Tue, May 23 2023, 4:38 pm
| amother Begonia wrote: | | Zinnia your posts are so on target and really are helpful to so many! Thank you. |
Thanks, I really appreciate this.
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amother
Dodgerblue
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Tue, May 23 2023, 4:41 pm
| amother Zinnia wrote: | | And does it check the other boxes as well? Because the child-caregiver ratio is super important but not enough, on its own, to put a daycare into the "high-quality" category according to the studies. So a daycare in your locality that checks that box might still fall into the category of daycares which does more harm than good. |
The entire point of a licensing system to set-up a frame work for "quality daycare". Do you think the people who figure out all the licensing criteria don't read studies?
(and this more harm than good idea you keep referring to is yours alone. No study exists for that).
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amother
Blushpink
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Tue, May 23 2023, 4:50 pm
| amother Begonia wrote: | | They go to sleep past 8 and are up to be at daycare at 7? What time do you pick up from daycare? It’s so great that you cosleep. |
Ya you count the overall sleep a toddler gets in 24 hours. Not just overnight. So including nap I think they’re getting plenty. Low sleep needs child.
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amother
Aster
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Tue, May 23 2023, 5:05 pm
The piece that I have to point out is the lower level of inherent emotional warmth the child is receiving.
Even in a very high quality daycare, it’s just not the same level of underlying love a parent has inside their heart.
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amother
Butterscotch
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Tue, May 23 2023, 5:07 pm
| amother Zinnia wrote: | That's amazing. Outstanding.
Can you appreciate that your daycare is of a rare breed and that you are able to pay for it is an extremely great privilege? Most people on here sending to daycares can't afford to send to one like yours, which checks all the boxes. Or, there are none like that in their geographic area (including licensed daycares). |
Of course I appreciate that I’m privileged ! But I also think women who work PT or WFH or not at all are privileged.
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amother
Dodgerblue
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Tue, May 23 2023, 5:10 pm
| amother Aster wrote: | The piece that I have to point out is the lower level of inherent emotional warmth the child is receiving.
Even in a very high quality daycare, it’s just not the same level of underlying love a parent has inside their heart. |
What does it matter about 'underlying love' 'inside their heart' - if the parent is on their phone and not on the floor with the infant? Not all mothers are inherently emotionally warm.
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amother
Aster
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Tue, May 23 2023, 5:14 pm
| amother Dodgerblue wrote: | | What does it matter about 'underlying love' 'inside their heart' - if the parent is on their phone and not on the floor with the infant? Not all mothers are inherently emotionally warm. |
Child feels it.
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amother
Dodgerblue
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Tue, May 23 2023, 5:18 pm
A child feels cared for, when they are cared for. For some children, that care comes from multiple care providers, including mom.
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amother
Zinnia
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Tue, May 23 2023, 5:44 pm
| amother Dodgerblue wrote: | The entire point of a licensing system to set-up a frame work for "quality daycare". Do you think the people who figure out all the licensing criteria don't read studies?
(and this more harm than good idea you keep referring to is yours alone. No study exists for that). |
Yes that is the point, but the other point of licensing is to make it something that can actually be implemented, so that as many centers as possible will be licensed - and safe. Therefore not every daycare center will be high-quality. As it is there are far too many unlicensed and illegal daycares out there, where children are literally in danger. You can't set the bar too high, that's not sensical.
I phrased it differently, yes, would you rather I phrase it as harshly as the studies themselves did? With all the behavioral, emotional, etc. issues? I'm trying to be nicer about it, assuming there is some good, just not enough to outweigh the harm.
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amother
Zinnia
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Tue, May 23 2023, 5:46 pm
| amother Butterscotch wrote: | | Of course I appreciate that I’m privileged ! But I also think women who work PT or WFH or not at all are privileged. |
All well and good but we are talking daycares. The daycare you send to is an enormous privilege, most daycares aren't that way and that is why the research differentiates between high-quality daycares and other daycares.
For this reason the experience you have had with this specific daycare center is not going to apply to the run-of-the-mill daycare centers most mothers on here send to. Their experience will be reflected more in the studies showing high cortisol levels in children, as well as maladaptive behaviors stemming from medium- to poor-quality childcare, and their experience is what the research refers to when it shows that children fare best at home with a loving parent, and not in a childcare setting.
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amother
Butterscotch
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Tue, May 23 2023, 6:27 pm
| amother Zinnia wrote: | All well and good but we are talking daycares. The daycare you send to is an enormous privilege, most daycares aren't that way and that is why the research differentiates between high-quality daycares and other daycares.
For this reason the experience you have had with this specific daycare center is not going to apply to the run-of-the-mill daycare centers most mothers on here send to. Their experience will be reflected more in the studies showing high cortisol levels in children, as well as maladaptive behaviors stemming from medium- to poor-quality childcare, and their experience is what the research refers to when it shows that children fare best at home with a loving parent, and not in a childcare setting. |
Obviously I’m talking about daycare as well but am referring to the numerous posts that keep the focus on ‘home with parent is best’ My point. Is that that conversation may be ‘ideal’ but more many is not realistic. My point is that those who can work part time, work from
Home or not work at all the true privileged ones.
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amother
Dodgerblue
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Tue, May 23 2023, 6:27 pm
| amother Zinnia wrote: | Yes that is the point, but the other point of licensing is to make it something that can actually be implemented, so that as many centers as possible will be licensed - and safe. Therefore not every daycare center will be high-quality. As it is there are far too many unlicensed and illegal daycares out there, where children are literally in danger. You can't set the bar too high, that's not sensical.
I phrased it differently, yes, would you rather I phrase it as harshly as the studies themselves did? With all the behavioral, emotional, etc. issues? I'm trying to be nicer about it, assuming there is some good, just not enough to outweigh the harm. |
I'm disagreeing with your blanket statement 'daycare causes damage' (paraphrased).
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amother
Begonia
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Tue, May 23 2023, 7:29 pm
Zinnia, how would you compare high quality daycare to being home with mom?
Which would be your preference?
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amother
Begonia
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Tue, May 23 2023, 7:31 pm
| amother Dodgerblue wrote: | | I'm disagreeing with your blanket statement 'daycare causes damage' (paraphrased). |
Dodgerblue, do you really believe all is good in daycare? Have you ever observed or worked in a daycare? Seriously this isn’t an argument.
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