Rachel seeing potential in Rabbi Akiva

amother

Seagreen

Mon, Jul 24 2023, 10:11 pm

gottago wrote:

The Gemara asks this question and answers that she saw Akiva's tznius.

Obviously not knees and elbows. She saw his middah of tznius. That he had an internal world and that he was in touch with himself and HKBH.
She knew that with this outlook, he could become great.

I love your explanation of Tznius. Imagine if this is how we learned about it in school. About our internal worlds.

amother

Stoneblue

Mon, Jul 24 2023, 10:15 pm

Did anyone ever stop and think what it means to send away a husband for 24 years!

wasnt she worried if something happened to him? There was no phones back then!

One of my high school teachers used to say, if she would be able to meet anyone from the entire history, she would choose Rachel Ayshes R Akivah. What gave her the strength to carry on? She came from the biggest riches!

PinkFridge

Tue, Jul 25 2023, 7:32 am

amother Stoneblue wrote:

She must have heard about the great scholar Rabi Akiva.
Of course, there she didn't know the details of his life but at least she knew that this was indeed her husband.

amother

PlumPink

Tue, Jul 25 2023, 11:00 am

Also he came back home after 12 years and overheard a conversation she had with a Neighbor, so he knew very well that she’s waiting for him patiently at home and is happy he’s away even though she doesn’t know until when.

When he came back after 12 yrs he knew how to learn but he wasn’t the big Rabi Akiva yet.
He went back knowing that she’s home happily waiting for him… and then he want back with that knowledge and became a big scholar.

amother

PlumPink

Tue, Jul 25 2023, 11:07 am

Also it amazes me how he told the Talmidim who tried to push her away that it’s all to her credit.
If she was on the level to sit alone for 24 years then chances are that she wouldn’t get hurt by being pushed aside. Like , she was superhuman anyways.
But he didn’t allow it.

Chances are she wouldn’t care, she was above the nitty gritties but Rabi Akiva made sure that she shouldn’t get hurt.

amother

Tue, Jul 25 2023, 11:54 am

amother PlumPink wrote:

Kalba savua, her father was very rich and he wanted her to marry a Talmid chacham.
Their worker, a shepherd, hated talmidai chachamim, he said that if he sees one he will bite him like a donkey.
And that’s who Rachel chose to marry.

Because she sensed that he had a lot of potential and if they marry she will encourage him to reach that potential.
And he only said that about the chachamim because he thought that they looked down at him for being a am haaretz.

But when she married him her father made a neder that he’s kicking her out of his home and life
Years Later, he asked rabbi Akiva to annul his neder (not knowing that the big Rabbi he’s talking to is his son in law, his former worker the shepherd!).

This is what we learned in kindergarten (many years ago, someone please correct me if I made any mistakes recounting this amazing story:)

This is exactly how I always heard the story. And therefore I ask WHAT did she see in him that showed her he had potential? That she chose to marry him specifically
It's not just that she could see the potential in every jew, because if so she could've married anyone... She got into this whole disagreement with her father, for what? Obviously she saw something special in HIM.
And so I ask, what did she see?

amother

Tue, Jul 25 2023, 11:58 am

PinkFridge wrote:

She must have heard about the great scholar Rabi Akiva.
Of course, there she didn't know the details of his life but at least she knew that this was indeed her husband.

She didn't.
She heard about the great scholar coming to town and wanted to ask him if he knew anything of her husband's whereabouts in Yeshiva...

Communication was not really existent in their circumstances (by choice? Because of distance? Poverty? We don't know) but they didn't know who he was as we see with Kalba Savua as well, he didn't expect this to be his son in law

Perhaps we can also assume he looked different after 24 years

amother

PlumPink

Tue, Jul 25 2023, 12:44 pm

amother OP wrote:

She saw that he’s a sincere person not a loud big shot but a quiet unassuming good human being who loves Hashem and his hate towards scholars is only because he was a am haaretz and thought they looked down at him.
She realized that with the right wife he can get out of that rut of being a simple am haaretz who hates scholars and become something much bigger.

octopus

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 8:16 pm

amother OP wrote:

Right.
But what did Rochel see that would justify sending him for 12 years?
How did she know he has the potential to be a scholar? Maybe he was just a wonderful kind sensitive man, only of a kind, but not a scholar?

She didn't know he was going to become a scholar, or even the biggest scholar of the generation. She just wanted him to learn.

amother

PlumPink

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 9:13 pm

[quote="octopus"]Its a very unusual story. I did hear once that rabbi akiva was a gilgul of yaakov avinu and Rachel a gilgul of Rachel imeinu. That it is written in Sefer hagilgulim.]

I heard
Yaakov was meant to bring down Torah shebichsav, and Esav Torah shebeal peh. But Esav went OTD.
Rabi Akiva was from Esav but he was bnai gerim, And brought down Torah shebeal peh.

amother

Cadetblue

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 9:19 pm

I dislike this story. It pushes the paradigm of women being martyrs for their husbands and not taking their own needs into account.

I know this will get tomatoes, but I just can't stand it all those stories of how women aren't worth anything besides for the torah of their husband and how they sacrifice for it.

octopus

Sun, Jul 30 2023, 3:32 pm

[quote="amother PlumPink"]

octopus wrote:

Its a very unusual story. I did hear once that rabbi akiva was a gilgul of yaakov avinu and Rachel a gilgul of Rachel imeinu. That it is written in Sefer hagilgulim.]

I heard
Yaakov was meant to bring down Torah shebichsav, and Esav Torah shebeal peh. But Esav went OTD.
Rabi Akiva was from Esav but he was bnai gerim, And brought down Torah shebeal peh.

How can that be? That doesn't fit in with pshat. Rivkah was told shnei non jews b'vitnech

b.chadash

Sun, Jul 30 2023, 5:41 pm

amother Cadetblue wrote:

Rabbi Breitowitz had a lecture during sefira that mentioned this story. Obviously we are not meant to take practical instruction from this couple Couples are meant to be together.

My thoughts: These two neshamos were rare and had to come together for the sake of the future of Torah. Just as Moshe rabbeinu had to separate from his wife in order to receive the nevuah from Hashem, and that is NOT meant as instructive for us, and other great and exalted people had to similarly cut themselves off in different ways for a greater purpose.

We can learn about sacrificing for Torah but this is not meant to be a guidebook for us.

As an aside. All those talmidom who went to learn in the yeshiva in Sura and Pumpedisa...did they all leave their wives as well?

PinkFridge

Sun, Jul 30 2023, 6:38 pm

b.chadash wrote:

As an aside. All those talmidom who went to learn in the yeshiva in Sura and Pumpedisa...did they all leave their wives as well?

Maybe. A lot of them. But probably not for 24 years, or even 12.