Is there any halachic backing to not covering hair?

amf

Fri, Aug 11 2023, 10:24 am

amother Navy wrote:

The difference is that lulav and esrog are literally commanded to us by Hashem in the Torah. Covering hair with a wig, and even covering hair in the first place, is not commanded by Hashem at all. Rather, it is inferred through human reasoning. So your stance that we follow halacha even if it doesn't make sense to our limited human brains doesn't work for the concept of hair covering, since the entire thing is inferred through human brains, and in fact, it doesn't work for most of practical halacha, which is inferred through human brains.

It's Torah she'bal peh, which was passed down, clarified and explained by humans, but not created by humans

amother

Red

Fri, Aug 11 2023, 10:24 am

amother OP wrote:

I should have specified LWMO. My family and friends who don’t cover are all MO. While MO does cover in general, there is the space for orthodox women who don’t cover in the MO world.
So while my fam doesn’t care about covering I do care but I’m wondering if there’s any legitimate halachic opinion on keeping hair uncovered.

Looks like there isn’t.

First of all, head covering is required only in public spaces.

Second, many sources say the head and not the hair. In the Mishna it's mentioned if a woman may be outside with a basket on her head. Head, not hair. And there are many more examples like this. So while head is required, hair is not.

I also posted what the Ben Ish Chai said about women in Europe. This is the opinion that goes that it might not be needed. Some Rabbi's wives did not cover and some only with a hat and there are pictures out there..

Goody2shoes

Fri, Aug 11 2023, 10:27 am

amother Navy wrote:

It means that the requirement for a married woman to cover her hair is not stated outright in the Torah, but rather is inferred through human reasoning (I.e. commentaries on the chumash) who used the story of Sotah as the basis for the requirement. This is elemental, and is true for many halachos we have today. They are inferred and deduced through human understanding by reading the Torah.

The difference is that by lulav and esrog, there is a straight out mitzvah in the Torah to fulfill it (although the particular details of how to do so, and what species are required, are also deduced and inferred through human understanding).

That's the difference between D'Oraysa and D'Rabanan. Stilll, I wouldn't refer to any mitzvos that are D'Rabanan as something inferred by the human mind

amother

Milk

Fri, Aug 11 2023, 10:29 am

amother OP wrote:

I’m asking here because this is a frum site and hopefully some frum MO women can tell me why it’s ok.

MO woman here.
There is no actual halacha that says it would be ok not to cover.
Many MO women just decide if they will cover. Yes, they are choosing to keep the mitzvah or not.
Im just telling you how it is.
Some women who never cover grew up that way and they just continue. Others just dont want to cover. But its a personal decision, not a halachic one.
I know thats not fun to hear. But its the truth.

Ema of 5

Fri, Aug 11 2023, 10:42 am

amother Gladiolus wrote:

That's the difference between D'Oraysa and D'Rabanan. Stilll, I wouldn't refer to any mitzvos that are D'Rabanan as something inferred by the human mind

That is literally what they are though- interpretations according to the rabbanim. There are many human minds, therefore many human interpretations.

amother

Slateblue

Fri, Aug 11 2023, 11:20 am

Ema of 5 wrote:

That is literally what they are though- interpretations according to the rabbanim. There are many human minds, therefore many human interpretations.

No it’s not. The mishna and Gemara were written down because Torah shebal peh- which is toras moshe misinai- was not being given over properly and r Yehuda Hanasi was scared it would be lost forever.
If you’re talking about a modern psak, yes it’s interpretations of the human mind, but we are commanded in torah shebichsav to listen to our rabanim, which makes listening to a drabanan a d’oraysa

amother

Red

Fri, Aug 11 2023, 11:46 am

amother Slateblue wrote:

And they say "head", not hair. Many MO rabbis and Dati Leumi interpret that the Halacha is that a woman may wear something to cover her head like a cap, hat , leave her hair out, and she is 100% not being lenient but following Halacha.

Also have to bring up again the Ben Ish Chai who says it's permitted to say Shema in front of women from Europe when their hair is completely uncovered. Most would not, he says yes so he has sources to rely that a woman's hair is not "nakedness".

amother

Blueberry

Fri, Aug 11 2023, 11:53 am

amother Mulberry wrote:

It’s funny to me that you’re calling your hair simple, boring and frizzy, yet don’t want to cover it. Covering is a plus for my frizzy, hard to manage hair.

That leads back to her original question how does that make sense.

amother

Clover

Fri, Aug 11 2023, 12:01 pm

I didn’t go through this entire thread so I don’t know if this was already shared (I apologize if it was) but I thought it might be helpful for some women here so I thought I’ll share anyways.
Yaffa Palti and Gitty Berger have a few very detailed lives on Instagram going into the deep ends about this topic. Yaffa explains everything very clearly of what is halachacly required and what is not. Everything she says is backed with sources.
For those of u who don’t know them, Yaffa is an amazing motivational speaker/Rebetzin and Gitty is a single mom that stopped covering her hair and was asking Yaffa for halachic explanation on this topic, similar to op, so they decided to have a public lecture to help other women at the same time. I linked all the lives below. Enjoy.
https://www.instagram.com/tv/C.....lZA==
https://www.instagram.com/tv/C.....lZA==
https://www.instagram.com/tv/C.....lZA==
https://www.instagram.com/tv/C.....lZA==
https://www.instagram.com/tv/C.....lZA==

chick567

Fri, Aug 11 2023, 12:23 pm

amother Navy wrote:

all the halachos of kashrus that we have today are also not written straight out in the torah. Its still deoraysa though. It literally doesnt say not to eat cheese and meat together, but its still halacha deoraysa.

when a mitzva is mentioned in the torah and we learn the details from TBP is deoraysa.
a mitzvah that is not mentoned in the torah and only referred to in TBP that is derabanan.
because covering hair is written in the torah (the sota story) even though we learn extra details of when, where, how much, and with what, later on, it is still deoraysa.

how each person chooses to interpret the obligation to cover, is up to individual rulings. but the obligation to cover is there

PinkFridge

Fri, Aug 11 2023, 12:48 pm

I haven't read the whole thread.
Look, I can tell you different opinions.
That paruah re sotah doesn't mean uncovered but disheveled. Of course, that means that someone who doesn't cover her hair should only wear their hair in more eidel, less-disheveled styles. But it's a mehalech.
Or, I could tell you that it's just the hair that's attached to the scalp. But the rest of your hair, not. That means you can wear a bandana and have a few inches of your own hair sticking out the back. I hear someone say that learning this was so helpful to her. On an intellectual level she felt that she should cover but wasn't ready.

All these are nice. But there's another, totally separate question.
What would stopping to cover say in your community? Are you comfortable with how people would look at you? Would your kids feel confused?

I wish you clarity. Maybe there's a rav/rebbetzin you could bounce things off of.

amother

Chambray

Fri, Aug 11 2023, 12:51 pm

Ema of 5 wrote:

That is literally what they are though- interpretations according to the rabbanim. There are many human minds, therefore many human interpretations.

No that’s only modern day sefarim. D’rabanan was handed down by har Sinai

amother

Red

Fri, Aug 11 2023, 12:58 pm

amother Chambray wrote:

No that’s only modern day sefarim. D’rabanan was handed down by har Sinai

If you go that route there are no rabbis nowadays since smicha was passed down from chaham to talmid from the Sanhedrin.

BeingBee

Fri, Aug 11 2023, 12:59 pm

Can I recommend a few shiurim by R' Ruthie Halberstadt? She's R' Akiva Tatz's daughter and is a Rebbitzen in London.

She has an app with her shiurim on there (just search Ruthie Halberstadt in the app store) and I just finished listening to her series on hair coverings - she covers ALL your questions and more.

And while hair covering is not a struggle for me (I've always had thin stringy gross hair) I found her shiurim giving me inspiration I didn't know I needed.

She's highly relatable, and engaging, and intelligent, and very "legitimate".

She addresses all crowds and backgrounds.

Google Play Link
https://play.google.com/store/.....pli=1

Apple App Store Link
https://apps.apple.com/tr/app/.....59456

Hatzlacha!!

amother

Chambray

Fri, Aug 11 2023, 1:05 pm

amother Red wrote:

If you go that route there are no rabbis nowadays since smicha was passed down from chaham to talmid from the Sanhedrin.

I do go that route. Rabanim today need to be really immersed in Torah learning and they are here to use already existing information and guide us. They are not able to create new.

amother

Red

Fri, Aug 11 2023, 1:43 pm

amother Chambray wrote:

I do go that route. Rabanim today need to be really immersed in Torah learning and they are here to use already existing information and guide us. They are not able to create new.

Through this route you'll see that many hilchot tznius are modern inventions. And many modern customs are straight out against what chachamim say.

meiravit

Fri, Aug 11 2023, 2:00 pm

amother Red wrote:

Also have to bring up again the Ben Ish Chai who says it's permitted to say Shema in front of women from Europe when their hair is completely uncovered. Most would not, he says yes so he has sources to rely that a woman's hair is not "nakedness".

That doesn't mean you don't have to cover. It just means a man's Shema won't be invalid if he says it in front of your uncovered hair, according to the Ben Ish Chai.

amother

Red

Fri, Aug 11 2023, 3:30 pm

meiravit wrote:

That doesn't mean you don't have to cover. It just means a man's Shema won't be invalid if he says it in front of your uncovered hair, according to the Ben Ish Chai.

Exactly. And men can't say Shema in front of an Erva. Therefore, in the case described, hair is not an Erva.

tryinghard

Fri, Aug 11 2023, 3:53 pm

When I learned the topic in (a RWMO) high school, we were taught a different perspective: I cover my hair for myself - I need to have the constant awareness of “I am a married woman”. So it’s irrelevant if anyone else can tell, it’s a geder for me.