Are simanim halacha or minhag?

amother

Orchid

Thu, Sep 14 2023, 10:36 am

Although I’m not a rabbi whatsoever I feel pretty confident saying they are not Halacha

watergirl

Thu, Sep 14 2023, 10:40 am

Complete and total minhag.

One is not over an issur by not doing simanim. One does not get a mitzvah by doing simanim.

In the last number of years, they've been elevated to seder plate level of importance with all of the stores selling simanim cards and various items.

I see how people can get confused - on Pesach it's d'Oraisa to have Pesach, Matza, and Marror. We add it to the seder plate with other items which vary depending on minhag and even the marror itself changes depending on minhag, but it's always there.

amother

Grape

Thu, Sep 14 2023, 10:48 am

I grew up with only one siman, the apple and honey. That one is practically universal among Ashkenazim and a tradition kept even by many nonobservant Jews. If for some reason I couldn't observe this one, I'd feel disappointed but would have no worries about the effect on my soul or my future. A mitzvah it's not.

amother

Latte

Thu, Sep 14 2023, 10:58 am

Minhag, as are other yom tov related things like tashlich and kapparos.

b.chadash

Thu, Sep 14 2023, 11:20 am

I too grew up with only a few of the simanim. Apples in honey, pomegranate, fish, fish head and maybe carrots. Now we do the whole list.

I do want to point out that the origin of this minhag is in the gemara. It's not a new tradition.

The leek, gourd etc that most of us did not grow up with I assume was not widely available in Europe, and so most of us did not grow up with this tradition. But today these foods are available almost everywhere and that's why they have made a comeback.

Last edited by b.chadash on Thu, Sep 14 2023, 11:25 am; edited 1 time in total

b.chadash

Thu, Sep 14 2023, 11:24 am

I also want to point out that the idea behind the simanim is also at least as old as old as the gemara.
We eat sweet foods to symbolize a sweet year, and stay away from sour and bitter foods.
See this article which explains it very nicely:
Where Do Rosh Hashana's Symbolic Foods Come From? https://jewinthecity.com/2017/.....from/

octopus

Thu, Sep 14 2023, 11:40 am

Strong minhag. I wouldn't even call it symbolic. Its a form of tefilla .Everything we do on rosh hashana we want to start on good tone. Even our physical things we do is a form of tefilla to Hashem. I would call siminei milsa an action form of davening.

Last edited by octopus on Thu, Sep 14 2023, 11:40 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Hydrangea

Thu, Sep 14 2023, 11:40 am

The idea of simanim on Rosh Hashana actually comes from the Gemara, so it should not be mentally compared to more recent minhagim that arose in the last few generations. See Kerisos 6a:

https://www.sefaria.org/Keritot.6a.1?lang=bi

amother

Hawthorn

Thu, Sep 14 2023, 11:41 am

Brought down by the Rema as a strong minhag. My DH likes to make fun of minhagim (unfortunately) and he made fun of this one too, until I challenged him to look it up. Now he keeps quiet and faithfully does the simanim every year.

amother

Lilac

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 5:35 pm

amother Hydrangea wrote:

What are more "recent" minhagim?
(I'm not talking about the sudden deluge of 'segulos' that have been discovered in recent years.)
Why does age of a minhag matter? Can we drop some of the more 'recent' ones?

amother

Blush

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 6:00 pm

amother Lilac wrote:

Why?

amother

Grape

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 6:38 pm

It's symbolic. It adds a holiday-specific element to the meal the way fried latkes do on Chanuka and milchik food does on Shavuos. But none of these is a mitzvah, there's no need to get hysterical if you don't do it one year or to take heroic measures to accomplish it. Tradition and custom are beautiful things but it's important to know what is a mitzvah and what is not.