Simcha budget in Lakewood weekly?

amother

Chicory

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 11:04 am

mommyla wrote:

The standards are definitely high in many Lakewood circles nowadays.

But our community, especially the young couples, simply don't know how to be fine with not meeting those standards. "Everyone" needs to buy a house, and then complain about how the houses are unaffordable (PSA: you do not "need" a house when you've been married for two years). "Everyone" needs to wear Atlanta mocassins or whatever the current shoes are from the frum stores (PSA: there's a perfectly functional DSW in Brick, and also Zappos, where you can get shoes for two or three kids for the same price you'd pay for one in the frum stores). "Everyone" needs to get a designer bag from their future in-laws (I just learned about that one from the Voice articles).

So yes, there is pressure and high standards. But too many people allow themselves to cave to that pressure. What we really need is to empower our kids to buy what they like and/or what we can afford.

I was raised in a community with many different income levels and that's just the way it was - some people had expensive stuff, some didn't, zehu. It's something that's bothered me since I found out about the bar/bas mitzvah rules in most Lakewood schools, where classmates aren't allowed to go to the parties. I understand and appreciate the reasoning and that kids shouldn't get competitive or feel bad about what they can't afford, but at the same time we deprive our children of a fundamental lesson: some people have more than others, and THAT'S OKAY.

That's the problem with these articles. You can afford a $300k wedding? Wonderful! I'd love to come see it. But don't go into debt for it and give yourself a heart attack just because you "have" to.

Yeah I think the biggest issue people had was the fact that after the guy talked about the wedding he made he then talked about how he couldn't afford it and he had to take a loan out and how stressed he is.

If someone has the money and makes an expensive simcha happily and without stress, then nobody would mind reading about it.
It was the fact that he pretty much said that he couldn't really afford it on his own and how figuring out how to pay for it was so stressful and then he blamed it on the majority of a community that doesn't do that! Obviously, this guy (& gal) is surrounding himself with people who are putting peer pressure on him but that is not the majority of the town and nobody is forcing him or his wife to copy what other people do especially when they cannot afford it.

Chayalle

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 11:08 am

The thing is (and here I'm thinking of another concurrent thread) it doesn't start with making a Simcha. It starts when your pre-teen is in school and there are some girls (who are redefined as "everyone in my class has this") with expensive designer coats/shoes/backpacks in her class, and you stick to who you are and buy her a cute backpack with a price that is within your budget (instead of fretting about how you will afford a $250 one because otherwise you fear she will need therapy)....and she learns that her self-worth is not defined by the sum total value of the articles of clothing and accessories on her person.

Then, when she gets married, she's fine with a beautiful gown from a Gemach, Sheva Brachos clothes that don't break the bank, etc....

amother

Apricot

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 11:10 am

Chayalle wrote:

It also helps to surround yourself with people who dont give you the peer pressure.

Chayalle

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 11:12 am

amother Chicory wrote:

When I was thinking about it, I was thinking that really many/most people stretch themselves a little when they are making a Simcha (particularly a wedding). So my 5-10K loan that I have a plan for repaying might be his 100-150K loan that he will repay. The only difference is that my wedding costs are basic and his are not, but in all fairness, his wife probably views alot of it as basic for her circles.

Maybe they could have discussed things and made a vort for 20K instead of 30K (I admit this blew my mind!) Maybe they could've cut costs of the Kallahs clothes to 15K instead of 25K (I could educate them about how to keep it under 1K, but I wouldn't want to take medical responsibility for his wife or Kallah). But I do hear that if they are in a different circle/bracket than I am, they will spend differently, and even take on some debt differently.

mommyla

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 11:13 am

amother Hosta wrote:

Disagree. SOME ppl live like this. Not me, not my friends, not my cousins, not my neighbors, not my coworkers. Don't generalize and stereotype like that- it hurts.

Great! I'm glad to hear that. Then this clearly doesn't apply to you, and I'm sorry that I hurt you. But I know a lot of young people - even levelheaded ones - who do live like this, or feel bad that they can't or don't. I see a huge difference between the parents and classmates of my older kids and the younger ones. Conformity and fitting in and "communal pressure" are definitely present. Among the older families, as far as I see, it's more present with those who have moved in the last 10 years, and I'm pretty sure that they're the ones who are making these simchas that are featured in the Voice (and the budgets in the columns a few months ago). They're the ones that I overheard in the party store fretting if the (super expensive) paper goods they were buying were "too nerdy" and "embarrassing." We need people to be confident and think for themselves.

B"H my neighborhood is a live-and-let-live community, where the bare-bones kiddush throwers and over-the-top ones coexist peacefully in the small, old homes next to the big, beautiful newly constructed homes.

We don't need to bring back Lakewood of old where everyone was happy with their old clunkers and nobody bought new clothes. We also don't all "need" the trends and have to support tzedakas that aim to serve their recipients on the same level as the town millionaires, and we shouldn't make people feel bad for being able to afford a fancy simcha or nice clothes because it puts pressure on others. In an ideal world, we'd all live and let live.

mig100

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 12:16 pm

amother Electricblue wrote:

If so many hadn’t moved to Lakewood we wouldn’t have to collect for tzedaka and yungerleit in the first place. 30 years ago 30-35k was doable for young families with a couple of kids. Walmart, hand me downs, beater cars, home baked goods, and frugal living were completely normal and acceptable in Lakewood. With the influx of those with different standards that is now gone and people need to run to tzedaka to use other people’s donations to splurge on 10k of jewelry for the kallah because that’s the new expectation.

The cost of living in lakewood went up a lot since

1) housing went up a lot. Its now a huge community and "in-town" . Regardless of which type of people moved here, pricing would have gone up a lot

2) inflation. life was more affordable 30 years ago. tuition, and other basics are a lot more costly.

3) there are more well-paying jobs in Lakewood. It used to be that to have a well-paying job, kyou had to usually travel to manhattan or elsewhere. now that there are so many well paying jobs in Lakewood, of course cost of living is going to go up. (similar to num 1)

Regardless of who moved to Lakewood and who didnt, making a wedding off a kollel check/wife's part-time salary would be extremely difficult.

Can you explain to me how someone earning under 80k a year can possibly afford a wedding? Lets assume 7 kids, a mortgage of a cheap house, living off-hand me downs How much do you think is left at the end of the year for a wedding? let alone 30k a year.

"Walmart, hand-me-downs, beater cars, home baked goods, and frugal living were completely normal and acceptable in Lakewood. " even if you do all these things there is absolutely no way to make a wedding off a salary of 30k without debt or tzedaka.

Last edited by mig100 on Mon, Nov 13 2023, 9:17 pm; edited 3 times in total

little neshamala

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 1:32 pm

I am appalled that this was even printed.
Very nice that some people are saying its for entertainment purposes.
No. This is wrong.
If I had a chinuch column and I interviewed three people on how they do a nightly bedtime routine, would they print the experience of the parent who smacks their kid until you see a hamdprint on their cheek, kicks them in the back, then locks them in their room and doesnt open it even while they sob themselves to sleep?
Would they print it? Would they?? For entertainment purposes???
No, no they would not, because they recognize how terrible it is, and they wouldnt want to give even the slightest bit of credence to that "mahalach".

I understand that my example is extreme, but it's to highlight a point.
By printing his viewpoint, they gave him some validation. They gave him some credence. And that should not have happened.

GLUE

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 4:27 pm

amother Chicory wrote:

A few weeks ago someone made a wedding for about $175,000. Those people had been putting money away for all there kids since they were born.
When they made the wedding they used that money and the $50,000 left over they used as a down payment for there daughters house.
There was not such anger to those people. Is it because they could afford it and these people can't?

amother

Magnolia

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 4:47 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I recently made a Simcha and I didn't spend anywhere near these crazy prices. And even the fact that I have close relatives who make such Simchas didn't faze me. We are a Kollel family, and I had no problem going to Gemachs and doing takana-style - this is me, and they know who I am. I don't go for the "blame the Cohens" for these lifestyle changes. Blame yourselves for not sticking to who you are.

Newsflash: Even working families typically can't afford over the top simchas. We also go to gemachs and do takana style

theoneandonly

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 4:49 pm

GLUE wrote:

I'm also annoyed at the voice for printing that and normalizing it, but those ppl seem more reasonable and aren't taking out huge loans to pay for an extravagant wedding they can't afford, so I can't say I'm annoyed at them per se.

mig100

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 8:00 pm

amother Magnolia wrote:

Newsflash: Even working families typically can't afford over the top simchas. We also go to gemachs and do takana style

Yes. this is the misconception where people go wrong too often. They expect , if they have a high income, they should be able to live with lots of extras

As someone posted above, it literally takes millions to live the high life. most people work really hard just to afford basics, without even making weddings.

amother

Sienna

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 8:17 pm

GLUE wrote:

I don’t read the voice but I’m assuming a big difference is they spent over 100k less and they saved up for it for a long time

mig100

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 9:17 pm

mig100 wrote:

I really want answer on this.

Do people really believe , if only people who lived very simply lived in lakewood, it would be possible to live off a similar amount as people lived off 30 years ago?

nylon

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 9:31 pm

I wouldn't say I was clutching my pearls -- these aren't my circles -- but I was shocked at spending so much on the vort and sheva brachos. I can't understand taking on this kind of debt for a simcha, especially when they could have had a lovely one without it.

Also I was surprised that relatively little was spent on the kallah's gown. I don't have a problem with spending less, but it was a surprise to me that, in a simcha with this level of spending, that's what they spent. Of course this may be partly luck in finding a gown easily and not being a size or shape that requires extensive alterations. (My own wedding was 20 years ago, but oy, do I remember how much extra money and time that was!)

B'Syata D'Shmya

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 11:04 pm

And there are schools who cant pay their teachers or build enough classrooms for all the students....sigh. Not to mention other stuff....

I'm not telling people how to spend the money Hashem gives to them or the wisdom of borrowing for Shalom Bayis to the extent that it causes stress in their lives. Living within ones means is a decision and honestly, there ARE incidences (or are they just stories?) of widows caused by the financial stress of these weddings.

The Mishpacha story of the over-the-top Bar Mitzvah where the wife borrowed money from a friend behind her husbands back and upped the ante for the neighborhood really talked to me.

There is always more and more a person can buy and do. The question is why? What are we chasing? Are 250 dollar booties for a little girl going to make her feet warmer than the 50 dollar ones? Why are our social lives based on having the latest and greatest status symbol (which unfortunately the Lakewood article just promoted)? What are we missing that we need to fill with material wealth to out-do or keep up with the neighbors?
Is this what the Torah wants from us?

amother

Firethorn

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 11:11 pm

mig100 wrote:

I really want answer on this.

Do people really believe , if only people who lived very simply lived in lakewood, it would be possible to live off a similar amount as people lived off 30 years ago?

no I don’t believe that. My grocery bill went up by 50%. Playgroup by 25%. Tuition up every year. Day camp up a few hundred dollars. Rentals and housing are expensive. Cars are 20-30% more expensive.

80k income can’t make a wedding without tzedakah. (Unless they invested 50-100 a month from the baby’s birth)