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-> Household Management
-> Finances
lostmyoldSN
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 Fri, Dec 22 2023, 6:33 am
| amother Apricot wrote: | Lol
I moved post seminary, my dh is israeli and we are raising them out of town in Israel, where we need to tone ourselves down so we don't create pressure for other people.
This was one of the big reasons I made the move - I saw the direction the community was going, and unfortunately it seems like there are very few low key oot options in america that are also as yeshvish and insular as we are. I don't want to be part of the rat race.
But I disagree - even the american bubbles are much much lower key then the comparable american communities. Israel is catching up, but we are a good 10 -15 years behind the states, and oot, non anglo israel is more like 20 years behind.... |
We also live in OOT Israel. Came after our wedding to Iarael. Where I live, there are all types financially. My kids have friends with houses and also friends who have tiny apartments. Overall, the general standard feels low.
I do agree with you that we (we being the bubbles) are behind America but things catch up and it only gets faster as the years go on.
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amother
Hyssop
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Fri, Dec 22 2023, 7:06 am
I can't stand frum materialism, it always felt so hypocritical to me. It especially irks me when I see it among the young kollel couples. It used to be being kollel meant you were sacrificing a certain lifestyle in order to be learning, but not anymore. By nature, I am a simple person, not into luxuries. It's not something I can pride myself on, it's just how I am, even maybe too much. My husband complains it's my "martyr complex", who knows?
I try to raise my kids with these values, but here's the problem. Along comes son #1, who upon entering preteenhood, has this burning NEED for things, things, more things. I guess it's his love language; the more they cost, the more he feels loved. He is neurodivergent, so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it, but it is very hard for me to relate to. My husband constantly tells me how I'm making battles out of things that shouldn't be battles and that my extreme attitude makes son desire even more. It's tough. So I end up buying the brand name shirts and the $75 sneakers that last maximum 3 months. I hate it, but this is where we are holding. Something that also doesn't help is- kids say all the time "everyone has it". Most often that's not true, but sometimes it really is. Chanuka presents were never part of our minhag, but son was literally in tears coming home from school every day of Chanuka because he says friends kept asking him "what did you get for Chanuka?" I thought that was bad, but then I heard that even his carpool driver was asking them, too! And one year, his rebbe asked by raise of hands, who ever flew on an airplane... guess who's kid was the only one who didn't?! Makes me mad that people are hoisting their own standards on my kid. Now, not every child has this burning need in them, BH, my other kids seem to be satisfied with what they have, and I hope it continues that way, but I just wanted to point out the struggle that it's not the same nisayon for everyone.
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amother
OP
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Fri, Dec 22 2023, 8:12 am
| amother Hyssop wrote: |
I can't stand frum materialism, it always felt so hypocritical to me. It especially irks me when I see it among the young kollel couples. It used to be being kollel meant you were sacrificing a certain lifestyle in order to be learning, but not anymore. By nature, I am a simple person, not into luxuries. It's not something I can pride myself on, it's just how I am, even maybe too much. My husband complains it's my "martyr complex", who knows?
I try to raise my kids with these values, but here's the problem. Along comes son #1, who upon entering preteenhood, has this burning NEED for things, things, more things. I guess it's his love language; the more they cost, the more he feels loved. He is neurodivergent, so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it, but it is very hard for me to relate to. My husband constantly tells me how I'm making battles out of things that shouldn't be battles and that my extreme attitude makes son desire even more. It's tough. So I end up buying the brand name shirts and the $75 sneakers that last maximum 3 months. I hate it, but this is where we are holding. Something that also doesn't help is- kids say all the time "everyone has it". Most often that's not true, but sometimes it really is. Chanuka presents were never part of our minhag, but son was literally in tears coming home from school every day of Chanuka because he says friends kept asking him "what did you get for Chanuka?" I thought that was bad, but then I heard that even his carpool driver was asking them, too! And one year, his rebbe asked by raise of hands, who ever flew on an airplane... guess who's kid was the only one who didn't?! Makes me mad that people are hoisting their own standards on my kid. Now, not every child has this burning need in them, BH, my other kids seem to be satisfied with what they have, and I hope it continues that way, but I just wanted to point out the struggle that it's not the same nisayon for everyone. |
Agreed. My friend has one high school girl who is very with it and has a social circle of girls that is very trendy. The school is a typical Bais Yaakov Lakewood mix but personality wise she gravitates toward these kids.
My friend is helpless as she sees her daughter come up with requests for traveling camp and high end accessories. She tells her no, we don’t do those things even though we can afford them, but it is driving a serious wedge between her and her daughter. The daughter sees her social circle as her top focus, and her circle is not being told no by their parents. She tells her daughter to work and pay for her high end taste items on her own but she refuses; her friends get it handed to them and apparently working to pay for camp or designer accessories is a no no. So they stand their ground. But they are torn. Their relationship with her is being strained.
They have one other bais medrash boy who is somewhat into brand names but all the others kids are not into it. They have offered alternatives like low key trips to Eretz Yisrael etc. but it doesn’t cut it for her. She pushed her parents like crazy to go to shabbos hotel programs which they are totally not into because the friends she choose value it. They did go once to accommodate her, but are stuck in a difficult place.
They have told her no. They have offered alternatives. They modeled good behavior. They put her into a good typical school environment. They live in a typical neighborhood. At the end of the day they don’t live on an island and the community’s choices affect them in a big way. Do they sacrifice their relationship with her for their principles?
It’s easy to tell others to live with their own principles and ignore peer pressure. In practice it’s a lot more complex. Real change needs to be on a community level. As the Rabbi says when we collectively start to look at someone with two $750 monthly leases as someone making poor financial choices rather than someone successful, change will happen.
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Librarian
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Fri, Dec 22 2023, 8:23 am
| chanatron1000 wrote: | | I think we need to normalize passing things that are no longer needed but still useful on to other people not as a chesed project, but just in general. Everyone, rich, poor and in between, can benefit from this. If it becomes the done thing, there'll be less need for chesed projects. |
The point not being it is a chesed project. The point being the raise of the standard.
My sister is raising a large family in Yerushalayim. When I discussed with her my ambivalence about the flower simcha gmach she told me she has an issue with a chesed fund in EY that treats low income children to lavish chol hamoed and bein hazmanim trips. Her family does not qualify nor can they afford such luxuries. The regular kollel families never dreamed of doing these kinds of activities. But now her children feel super deprived and nebach and the pressure is very difficult on my sister.
Last edited by Librarian on Fri, Dec 22 2023, 8:44 am; edited 2 times in total
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Ema of 5
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Fri, Dec 22 2023, 8:38 am
| Bnei Berak 10 wrote: | | Because when simple simchas are norm it's community accepted. Simple simchas doesn't mean it's nebech. |
I said nothing about being a nebach. And I didn’t say there is anything wrong with making a simple Simcha either. What I said is that, if one can afford it, there is nothing wrong with making a fancy Simcha. You don’t need to curb YOUR Simcha because I can’t afford to do the same thing.
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seltzermom
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Fri, Dec 22 2023, 9:31 am
It’s tricky because materialism that’s elevated creates a bigger kailee for Bracha and doing good.
For example it’s easier to raise a large Jewish family in a large home with a kitchen that boasts ovens and dishwashers that support a Jewish lifestyle.
And then having guests in such a home is easier too. Which is a big mitzvah.
So I think the blessings that Hashem is bestowing should be channeled into doing more spiritually and on a grander scale.
It’s only when we lose sight of who we really are that this becomes an issue. If our focus is on status through materialism instead of how much more light can I bring into the world with the means I have.
I live in Brooklyn and have one old dishwasher that needs replacement. Bh I have two washer dryers (one came with the house, one I bought with me) and that helps me do a lot of laundry quickly. Is that terrible? I don’t think so. They both happen to me old machines. But my point is these machines are there to help us do more and in an efficient way.
I guess we need to be sure that it doesn’t become our new GOD chas v’shalom. And we always ask ourselves first before doing something - will this bring more light to the world or is it only self serving.
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amother
Nemesia
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Fri, Dec 22 2023, 10:05 am
| amother Babypink wrote: | | Because what your doing on pesach is equivalent to for example a family of jews that bribed a guard in bergen belsen and is now eating a 7 course meal while the rest on starving. What your doing is not on any planet according to yiddishe hashkafa. When your in Dubai or orlando for peasach what are you channeling zeicher yetzias mitzrayim or Kim Kardashian ? |
Ok, that is completely out of line. You may not like people going to Orlando for Pesach, but a Holocaust analogy is really out of bounds. You should apologize to the previous poster for that.
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amother
Nemesia
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Fri, Dec 22 2023, 10:12 am
And regarding my previous post I was not saying that all luxuries should be excused as necessities in the name of mental health/self care. I was saying that I see just as much an issue in people needing to buy things because others have them and people who can't stop complaining that other people are buying to much stuff. Stop being so outwardly focused. Look at your own life and buy the things (that you can afford) that will help you to be happier, calmer, and a better eved hashem. Don't buy the things which you think are not necessary.
I know someone who is always going on and on about people on tuition assistance buying fancy c'y yogurts in jewish grocery stores. Just shut up and get your nose out of other people's shopping carts.
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amother
Blue
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Fri, Dec 22 2023, 10:40 am
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In my experience, the real wealthy people are not the people flaunting their money. I know of wealthy people who drive regular cars, live in nice houses, but nothing over the top, and dress average. The people doing things over the top are people that made money quickly in other words, they grew up without money and managed to hustle and do better for themselves now. Some don’t even have money but will do everything and anything to pretend they do. These people are spending like they have something to prove. It’s not having extra dishwashers or ovens in your home that is a problem. You can have a nice home and have it quietly without showing it off or talking about it. If it’s something useful to your family, that’s good. The problem is when all the conversation is about the renovations you’re doing on your house, the clothing you’re buying , the vacations that you’re going on, the bar mitzvah you’re planning etc. When you’re doing it just to show off and to prove yourself, that’s a problem. When your whole life revolves around it, that’s also a problem. Materialism doesn’t need to become a lifestyle.
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amother
Seablue
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Fri, Dec 22 2023, 10:58 am
| amother Blue wrote: | | In my experience, the real wealthy people are not the people flaunting their money. I know of wealthy people who drive regular cars, live in nice houses, but nothing over the top, and dress average. The people doing things over the top are people that made money quickly in other words, they grew up without money and managed to hustle and do better for themselves now. Some don’t even have money but will do everything and anything to pretend they do. These people are spending like they have something to prove. It’s not having extra dishwashers or ovens in your home that is a problem. You can have a nice home and have it quietly without showing it off or talking about it. If it’s something useful to your family, that’s good. The problem is when all the conversation is about the renovations you’re doing on your house, the clothing you’re buying , the vacations that you’re going on, the bar mitzvah you’re planning etc. When you’re doing it just to show off and to prove yourself, that’s a problem. When your whole life revolves around it, that’s also a problem. Materialism doesn’t need to become a lifestyle. |
Currently building and fighting with my designer for this reason. He constantly wants to put in impractical fancy things because of this attitude that my kitchen needs to be “fancy” and “dressy”. I’m going crazy. I need to be scrubbing my kitchen counters my entire life because “everyone uses marble”? For Pete’s sake. What is this attitude even? Who cares?
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lamplighter
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Fri, Dec 22 2023, 11:14 am
This is a huge peice. It's not about how individuals spend their money it's about the focus on materialism and having fancy things. Most rich people have quality expensive things but they aren't posting it all over social media or discussing it in regular conversation.
A bit more oholecha yaakov would make a big impact in this area.
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amother
Strawberry
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Fri, Dec 22 2023, 11:25 am
| amother Aquamarine wrote: | It's an issue for most people.
Couples are choosing not to have children and instead enjoy living a more luxurious lifestyle. They call themselves DINKs - Dual income no kids |
I actually think that's a good thing. The classes are divided today so that the few that are rich are crazy rich while everyone else is middle class or poor.
The fact that these people aren't having kids means that their money will be divided between their friends or whoever they chose to give it too but it will still be more people than one or two kids.
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amother
Linen
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Fri, Dec 22 2023, 11:41 am
I believe we need to address the underlying problem in our society called PEER PRESSURE.
Why was there no peer pressure ever before the Holocaust and right after? We need to get to the bottom of it. How do we eradicate PEER PRESSURE from between adults teens children.
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amother
Strawberry
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Fri, Dec 22 2023, 11:52 am
| amother OP wrote: | Agreed. My friend has one high school girl who is very with it and has a social circle of girls that is very trendy. The school is a typical Bais Yaakov Lakewood mix but personality wise she gravitates toward these kids.
My friend is helpless as she sees her daughter come up with requests for traveling camp and high end accessories. She tells her no, we don’t do those things even though we can afford them, but it is driving a serious wedge between her and her daughter. The daughter sees her social circle as her top focus, and her circle is not being told no by their parents. She tells her daughter to work and pay for her high end taste items on her own but she refuses; her friends get it handed to them and apparently working to pay for camp or designer accessories is a no no. So they stand their ground. But they are torn. Their relationship with her is being strained.
They have one other bais medrash boy who is somewhat into brand names but all the others kids are not into it. They have offered alternatives like low key trips to Eretz Yisrael etc. but it doesn’t cut it for her. She pushed her parents like crazy to go to shabbos hotel programs which they are totally not into because the friends she choose value it. They did go once to accommodate her, but are stuck in a difficult place.
They have told her no. They have offered alternatives. They modeled good behavior. They put her into a good typical school environment. They live in a typical neighborhood. At the end of the day they don’t live on an island and the community’s choices affect them in a big way. Do they sacrifice their relationship with her for their principles?
It’s easy to tell others to live with their own principles and ignore peer pressure. In practice it’s a lot more complex. Real change needs to be on a community level. As the Rabbi says when we collectively start to look at someone with two $750 monthly leases as someone making poor financial choices rather than someone successful, change will happen. |
Your friend is throwing her kid off the derech.
As someone who was told no by my parents even though they could afford it. Let me tell you it hurt. Made me feel unwanted and unloved.
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lamplighter
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Fri, Dec 22 2023, 12:01 pm
| amother Linen wrote: | I believe we need to address the underlying problem in our society called PEER PRESSURE.
Why was there no peer pressure ever before the Holocaust and right after? We need to get to the bottom of it. How do we eradicate PEER PRESSURE from between adults teens children. |
Why do think peer pressure is new? People in the olden days lived simply and near people of their "class". They may have never known how the other half lives or thought of it as remotely attainable.
Now we all have access to each other's lives and lifestyles via communities, media and social media.
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amother
Periwinkle
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Fri, Dec 22 2023, 12:01 pm
| amother Strawberry wrote: | Your friend is throwing her kid off the derech.
As someone who was told no by my parents even though they could afford it. Let me tell you it hurt. Made me feel unwanted and unloved. |
I was constantly told no - some things they couldn’t afford some things they could afford. But I knew they loved me, they showed me in other ways.
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dena613
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Fri, Dec 22 2023, 12:12 pm
| amother Aconite wrote: | | Another excellent point. The wealthy can buy beautiful soft leather European Shabbos shoes for all their kids. The poor can go to the same store and buy the same shoes with a tomchei shabbos voucher. And now the middle class feels terrible in Cat and Jack plastic shabbos shoes and the standard has shifted for all. |
This this this
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chanatron1000
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Fri, Dec 22 2023, 12:20 pm
| Librarian wrote: | The point not being it is a chesed project. The point being the raise of the standard.
My sister is raising a large family in Yerushalayim. When I discussed with her my ambivalence about the flower simcha gmach she told me she has an issue with a chesed fund in EY that treats low income children to lavish chol hamoed and bein hazmanim trips. Her family does not qualify nor can they afford such luxuries. The regular kollel families never dreamed of doing these kinds of activities. But now her children feel super deprived and nebach and the pressure is very difficult on my sister. |
It wouldn't raise the standard so much if it wouldn't make a middle class sandwich.
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amother
Mistyrose
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Fri, Dec 22 2023, 12:47 pm
| amother Strawberry wrote: | Your friend is throwing her kid off the derech.
As someone who was told no by my parents even though they could afford it. Let me tell you it hurt. Made me feel unwanted and unloved. |
A mother who doesn't want to buy her children over-the-top luxuries, yet who doesn't deny her child those luxuries if they want to pay for them themselves, who offers her child a "simple" trip to Israel... that mother is throwing her child off the derech?
What derech is this?
Just because someone can technically afford something doesn't mean that they want to use their money for it. It's just as valid to save money for retirement, for weddings, to give more tzedakah, to put the money into investments that will grow instead of on brand names that will be outgrown in a few months.
And that's the only thing that will keep our kids on the derech?
What if this girl was in a crowd where the girls all vaped or had boyfriends? Would we still reiterate that giving her whatever her friends have is paramount for her emotional security?
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amother
Oak
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Fri, Dec 22 2023, 12:55 pm
| amother Strawberry wrote: | Your friend is throwing her kid off the derech.
As someone who was told no by my parents even though they could afford it. Let me tell you it hurt. Made me feel unwanted and unloved. |
I'm sorry you felt unloved. My parents also said no to things even though they could afford it. I never felt unloved. Most parents set limits and say no to their children. There is something else going on because that alone is not something that normally makes a child feel unloved or go off the derech.
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