There are no normal jobs for men

amother

Petunia

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 7:15 am

amother Scarlet wrote:

Many, if not most, public school positions pay more than that so I don't agree with the potential for growth statement. However I do agree with OP that this is a job better suited to a woman who wants a more flexible schedule (including summers off). Even at $100k, it's not great for a man.

Public schools have set salaries based on experience and degree. So even if he’s the best teacher ever and puts in tons of extra work he’s going to get that same raise of $800 a year or whatever it is. And the salary stops at a certain point. Most states don’t go up to 100k

amother

Slategray

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 7:48 am

Op,
Idk how many years your husband is in the work force, but I can only speak from my experience. My husband’s starting position ten years ago paid 30k from 9-5. After two years he got a raise and made 50k 9-5 for the next 3 years. Which means he had 5 years of experience in his field and making 50k. It was extremely frustrating. He was looking for a new job for about 6 months until he randomly sat next to a company owner at a simcha and they were schmoozing. 3 weeks later her got a job offer from this guy at 100k. Bh he is five years in and he’s making a very nice salary. My point is, sometimes it takes time until a real opportunity comes along.

amother

Scarlet

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 8:10 am

amother Nasturtium wrote:

Again, I really don’t get this whole man thing. I’m paid for the value I bring whether I am a man or woman. More value, higher salary. My dh is making about this salary now. Granted we don’t live in the USA anymore, but this is a very strange mindset that men by birthright should make more than women. It is not true in my house, but it also doesn’t matter in my home because whatever we do, we do it together and see the value we each bring.

It's a strange mindset to you that the husband should be the main breadwinner? Why? It shouldn't be. It's a strange mindset to you that women would rather get paid a little less in return for more flexible hours? Again, what's strange about that? Iyh women have children and would like to be available to raise them?

And it's not just in the frum world. I see, even in the non Jewish world, that women gravitate towards jobs that have better hours and are more flexible than a higher paying job with longer hours and no flexibility.

It's just common sense.

And 60k is not enough in the frum world.

amother

Oldlace

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 9:36 am

amother Scarlet wrote:

Of course it is understandable to want that set up, it is the more traditional way. But the fact is men don't deserve more money just for being a man, they have to bring that value to a company.

Elfrida

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 9:47 am

Flexible hours might mean a slightly lower income, but that should apply equally to men and women. If a man takes the flexible hours, he takes the cut in income. If a woman works full time in an office (or whatever) her pay should be equivalent yo a man in a comparable position.

amother

Almond

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 9:49 am

amother Scarlet wrote:

You can't have it all.

If you want to go back to a time in which men were the "main"provider and women stayed at home or worked at low paying jobs then you would need to completely change most of the chareidi lifestyle.

I specify chareidi and not frum because Modern Orthodox does in fact bring up their children to be understand that they need to get excellent secular educations to support the life style they want. They become doctors, CPA, lawyers, get MBA's.

And even in that world - or the secular world - unless a man is extremely successful, women also have well paying jobs to support an upper class lifestyle - and the reality is that frum life requires an upper class income

In the secular world, women do not necessarily gravitate to dead end low paying positions automatically. The nice part about having two high earning people is that you have the money to afford housekeepers. Also a lot of high level jobs do offer flexibility because they are based on results rather than hours spent.

amother

Almond

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 10:41 am

Interesting article on the economic value of a college education as an investment

A college degree offers better returns than the stock market - but it varies dramatically between majors

* The average US college degree is a better investment than the stock market
* Engineering, science and math were more lucrative than arts and humanities
* In terms of earnings, women benefitted more by going to college than men

The average college degree offers a better return on investment than the US stock market - but some don't.

A typical four-year degree course costs $108,800 to cover tuition, housing, books and food.
If that was invested in the stock market, based on typical returns, it would be worth around $2.8 million after a working career of 40 years.

But if that money was used to fund a college education, over the same period a person would have earned a total of $4 million more than they would have if they only went to high school.
But choice of college major makes a considerable difference. For example, an engineering major would generate almost three times the returns of a degree in the humanities and arts. The graphic below shows the differences.

A college degree offers better returns than the stock market - but it varies dramatically between majors

Researchers found that earning a degree provided a rate of return on investment of 9.9 percent for women and 9.1 percent for men

Stocks and shares generate an average return of around 8.46 percent, according to separate research cited by the study

The fascinating findings come in a new analysis of 5.8 million Americans, which compared the wages of those with college degrees against those with only high school diplomas.

Over a lifetime, college graduates typically earn significantly more.

These additional earnings were compared with what they spent on four-year bachelor's degrees. Earnings college graduates missed out on while at college were also considered, but factored in separately.

On average, those with college degrees enjoyed annual returns on their investment of between 9 and 10 percent, according to the study, published in the American Educational Research Journal.
That is greater than the average return on an investment in the stock market, which is around 8.5 percent annually, according to separate research cited by the researchers.

'Our cost-benefit analysis finds that on average a college degree offers better returns than the stock market,' said coauthor Liang Zhang, a professor at the NYU Steinhardt School of Culture, Education, and Human Development.

'There are significant differences across college majors and the return is higher for women than men,' he added.

Men and women who had majors in engineering yielded a return of 16.4 percent on average, but female engineers alone saw much higher return of almost 19 percent.

Engineering graduates might ending up taking high-paying jobs at companies like Boeing or Tesla.
The study, published this week, also found that the returns on the average college degree for both sexes fell by more than half a percent between 2012 and 2020. That was due to the rising costs of college and wages that aren't keeping up.

In the case of almost every major, women saw higher returns. That's because women with only high school diplomas were especially low earners, meaning the benefit they experienced attending college was higher.

That does not mean women make more than men, in fact, the opposite is true. Women earned approximately 28 percent less than men among college graduates and about 33 percent less than men among high school graduates.

The second highest earning major was computer science, where returns were between around 13 and 15 percent for both men and women. These graduates might go on to work as software engineers for tech giants like Apple or Google.

Business, health, and math and science majors had returns ranging between 10 and 13 percent. Biology, agriculture, and social science majors had returns of approximately 8 percent to 9 percent.
At the lower end of the spectrum, education, humanities and arts majors all had returns of less than 8 percent. Those graduates might go into fields like marketing or book publishing.
To evaluate what sort of returns can be expected from investing in the stock market, the study cited research that estimated rates of return on assets like bonds, equities and housing between 1870 to 2015.

It found that stocks and shares yielded a long-term rate of return of 8.46 percent, taking into account inflation.

The study relied on data between 2009 and 2021 from the US Census Bureau's American Community Survey, and also adjusted all earnings to compensate for inflation.

However, it only compared individuals who completed high school with those who got bachelor's degrees - it did not consider those with more advanced degrees.

Liang said that may undervalue the overall returns of a college education as a bachelor's degree is a necessary stepping stone for those that embark on postgraduate studies, which can also be lucrative.

amother

NeonPink

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 11:05 am

amother Almond wrote:

Also a lot of high level jobs do offer flexibility because they are based on results rather than hours spent.

This is true and often overlooked. DH and I both have a lot of flexibility and earn nicely. I work from home 60-70% and can come and go as I please during the times that I don't have meetings scheduled. I sometimes put in long hours, but I usually have a lot of control over the scheduling of those hours.

amother

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 11:10 am

Elfrida wrote:

Right, but usually the men don’t take flexible hours in my experience so it ends up working out better

amother

Nasturtium

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 11:24 am

amother Scarlet wrote:

Exactly what others said, being a man doesn’t mean you get more money. Bring in more value, make more money. Money isn’t a gender birthright.

I make more than my dh and I have a much more flexible job. I walked out today in the middle of craziness and told them I’m available online but I need to make Shabbat and I work from home most days.

I’m a big believer in working smarter not harder. You need to plan a career that gives the maximum benefits with the least hours.

I also know 60k isn’t enough which is why both my dh and I work.

amother

Almond

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 12:40 pm

amother OP wrote:

Right, but usually the men don’t take flexible hours in my experience so it ends up working out better

Actually most high paying careers actually have more flexible hours than lower level jobs.

This is increasingly so because being in a physical office is not necessary to perform many high level jobs. Even meetings with people are now done by zoom.

I just got off the phone with my CPA who does my taxes. I haven't met with her in many years. Everything is done via phone and email.

I am a lawyer and have worked in many corporations - not in private practice. I very rarely met with outside counsel and even in terms of meeting with people at work - even pre-pandemic - it was often phone calls and emails because it is more efficient. No one care what time I was there or left except for all hands meetings which were scheduled.

It is lower level employees that typically have to be in the office for a set number of hours. The administrative assistants/office managers generally have to be there and need to ask permission if they can't be there during normal working hours.

I never have to clear anything because everyone knows how to reach me wherever I am (for better or worse).

amother

Raspberry

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 2:40 pm

My husband has a degree from a top university and a masters. His last job search took about 4 months and he got into the final rounds with four different companies. Now, that is for someone with a very high level degree and 10 years of experience. If your husband wants a better job and higher earning potential he needs to get a specific degree for a field that has higher earning potential that he enjoys. He also needs to network and get his foot in the door somewhere during school. You cannot expect him to get jobs with no specific training or degree that are worthwhile.