Schools Enforcing a Rule in the Rulebook

amother

Oatmeal

Sun, May 05 2024, 9:45 am

dena613 wrote:

Yes it's a student rule. Many BY have rules about when their students may have licenses.

I don't know what the severe punishment is, but it sounds like a rule they should have cracked down on a long time ago.

Maybe minor punishment this year because its not fair to crack down so hard on something you've been ignoring, with warning to eleventh grade that next year the punishment will be much worse. Tell them what it will be.

What's the punishment?

I agree with this. If the school was lax about the crackdown, then it's unfair to apply a tough punishment without proper notice. A minor punishment is the right response, and then they can reinforce it next year.

These students shouldn't be the scapegoat if they turned a blind eye for some time. If they chose to ignore it, then thats on them. Regardless of what triggered this now, the school bears the responsibility for their inactions till now. It is very wrong to use students as a means to highlight their change in their approach.

Honestly, if they do take a hardline approach now, they can undo the full 12 years of chinuch for these kids in one instance. Being treated unfairly triggers a strong emotional response in people, and teenagers especially can really take it to heart.

amother

Forsythia

Sun, May 05 2024, 9:46 am

I have a 16 year old who just got her learner's permit on isru chag and who is already beginning to learn how to drive. I think this school rule is ridiculous because the school shouldn't have a say in something that doesn't occur on school grounds and doesn't affect them in any way. It's not a religious issue either and should be a decision for the parents to make on an individual basis. The only say the school should have is whether students can drive to school. That said, if the school did have such a ridiculous rule and we knew that going in and agreed to abide by it, then we should and would abide by it and the school has a right to enforce it.

What would happen if there was pushback from the parents?

amother

Oatmeal

Sun, May 05 2024, 9:55 am

amother Sand wrote:

I would call this a family standard, not a student standard. You can make a school rule about student not being allowed to drive cars to school/have access to a car during school hours. I'm not sure why they get a say if a parent feels that they want their 12th grader to be able to drive on Sundays.

Schools have long overstepped their boundaries and try to rule the homes too. We kept quiet with the initial ones, rationalized the following ones and now we are left with a dictator-like setup.

I often wonder about the people in charge of schools. Do they fully internalize how they can impact a childs life forever? Or are they so hung with power or the mindset that they can legislate yiddishkeit to the community that they have lost the plot?

What comes to my mind is the expression they teach drivers - 'You can be right, but dead right'. Meaning that you can have the right of way, but if you don't take in the full environment, you can end up right but dead. Same idea here, the school can have the right idea, but if they don't take in the full environment, they can end up being 'dead'. Dead as in the students don't take them seriously, and feel that they're totally out of touch with reality. They only abide by the rules bec of lack of choice, and then drop everything, rules and chinuch, as soon as they are out.

Schools have every right to set rules for students on their property and outline expected behaviors. They do not have any right to set rules for parents or for their homes. Chinuch is for kids, not for adults. And if you don't have trust in your own parent body, the products of our own chinuch system, then what is chinuch system worth??

amother

Denim

Sun, May 05 2024, 10:06 am

amother Oatmeal wrote:

The home has EVERYTHING to do with the in school experience. If my child’s classmates are streaming Netflix at home or have unfiltered Internet access, are going to hangouts on motzai shabbos, talking to boys outside of school, or having raucous parties all outside of school hours with parents permission, that is going to have a serious effect on the IN SCHOOL ENVIRONMENT, and you can bet your bottom dollar I would not send to that school.

Girls driving all over town in 12th grade tends to lead to absences, distractions, and conflicts with the chinuch the school is trying to provide. It is not nearly any of the extreme examples I gave above, but the school has every right to draw their line, and expect parents to be partners, so long as the rules are clearly spelled out when parents agreed to send their children to the school.

amother

Oatmeal

Sun, May 05 2024, 10:23 am

amother Denim wrote:

The home has EVERYTHING to do with the in school experience. If my child’s classmates are streaming Netflix at home have unfiltered Internet access are going to hangouts on.motzai shabbos, talking to boys outside of school or having ruckus parties all outside of school hours with parents permission you can bet your bottom dollar I would not send to that school.

Girls driving all over town in 12th grade tends to lead to absences, distractions, and conflicts with the chinuch the school is trying to provide. It is not nearly any of the extreme examples I gave above, but the school has every right to draw their line, and expect parents to be partners, so long as the rules are clearly spelled out when parents agreed to send their children to the school.

Of course the home has the largest impact on the child. That doesn't give the school the right to rule the home. They can set rules and expectations for the children, but not the parents or the home.

For example, they can set the rule for no driving on school grounds as that is their right. Then if a student is frequently absent, then you deal with those absences. You discuss with the parents and student and let them figure out the root cause of the behavior. If its the driving that's the issue, then it's the parents should restrict the driving, not the school. If the parents don't, and the actions don't change, the school can take steps for punishments for the absences. But they aren't another set of parents, or rabbis.

Similar approach for the internet. They can set the rules that kids should not be exposed to unfiltered internet and no outside concepts be brought into schools. It's the parents responsibility to then ensure that happens. If they don't, then the school can take action for the inappropriate behaviors. The school cannot tell the parents what devices to own, or how to set up their homes. They can tell them their expectations and demands, and then ensure that it's met for the kids. Zehu.

If the schools mete out appropriate consequences, then parents will generally oblige. Parents will then implement different measures in their homes as per their preferences. But if you force your way into their homes and demand things must be done as per your wishes, it backfires almost always. Take the flip phones for examples. If you have a no smartphone rule, many parents will just get two phones. You can't set rules for adults. The outcome is a higher disrespect for ALL the rules, even the sensible ones.

The Torah doesn't require policing adults. I repeat - if you have a system set up where you can't trust adults to do right, then there's something very wrong with that system.

amother

Oatmeal

Sun, May 05 2024, 10:28 am

amother Denim wrote:

To add another thought - this mindset speaks to parents handing over their chinuch obligations to the school. Parenting is very hard work, so we are passively handing it over to the schools to do it for us.

Schools can never be parents. Each child has their own needs. When schools tries to be parents, it hurts so many of them. Schools can only set blanket rules, and they cannot set individual rules as needed. Then we end up trying to force all students into that same box of rules, and obviously that hurts many of them.

The schools role is to provide an education. Their role is not to be another set of parents. Nor is their role to legislate yiddishkeit (that's the job of your Rav). Nor is it their role to police society (that is nobody's job, it's the individual responsibility of every adult).

amother

Denim

Sun, May 05 2024, 10:34 am

amother Oatmeal wrote:

This is not a parent rule. This is a student rule. The school is not telling parents they can’t drive. It is telling students. Students are not just student while in class. If a parent decides to take a student to a Taylor Swift concert that is a school problem. The school has decided that a 12th grader driving her friends all over town is a school problem. This is their right.

If the parents or shul rav feels differently that is something that should be taken up directly with the school hanhalah on an individual level. This is not Thomas Jefferson High. This is a Bais yaakov, and student standards on and off campus have always been part and parcel of the Bais yaakov chinuch.

amother

Oatmeal

Sun, May 05 2024, 10:38 am

amother Denim wrote:

That is a home rule, not a school rule. A school rule would be that kids cannot drive on their property and should not drive themselves to school. Anything outside that is not their perogative and is overstepping into the home life.

amother

Oatmeal

Sun, May 05 2024, 10:44 am

amother Denim wrote:

Student standards are different than legislating home life. Herein lies the exact problem. Setting standards is appropriate for BY. But we no longer know what a standard defines. We have hijacked the definition to try to excuse schools behaviors.

Not allowing children to drive is not a standard. Children can do errands and be helpful in being a 2nd driver. Dressing appropriately and not going to inappropriate places is standards. And schools can set their guidelines for it.

But schools are doing more than that. They're setting up rules for the home in place of the parents. That is inappropriate. If they have a standard that kids shouldn't go to xyz, then that is up to the parents to decide how to enforce it. I as the parent can choose when and where to give my kids the key, or decide not to allow them to drive at all. But that is the PARENTS responsibility, not the school.

amother

Sun, May 05 2024, 10:49 am

Whether or not it's a reasonable rule, or whether the school overstepped is kind of irrelevant to the conversation.
This is why I didn't want to mention the specifics in the first place.

The school made the rule clear more than 4 years ago, when they accepted these students into the highschool.
It has been reminded frequently.
The students signed on it at the beginning of the year.
The principals reiterated it over the year

Now, they decided to enforce.

And some parents and students are up in arms that the school has no right.

I'm curious as to a broader response.
Would in your opinion, the school have a right to expel (worse case, really harsh punishment) a student.

amother

Oatmeal

Sun, May 05 2024, 10:50 am

amother Denim wrote:

Do you feel the same about Netflix, drinking, recreational drugs, boyfriends, etc? The school has no business with how the student comports herself as long as it is off of school grounds?

Yes. The school can set their rules that no drugs on school ground ever, and anyone showing drug-like behavior will be escorted off grounds. But they can't tell the parents that they can't send their children to the pharmacy, or can't send their children on errands on the off chance they will drive to meet up a dealer.

Same with boyfriends and Netflix. Schools can set up expectations but the enforcement is on the parents. The schools can't walk into their parents home and set up rules for it.

I repeat again - the schools are not a replacement for parents. I know that it's easier for parents to offload responsibility to the school, but it is wrong. And the outcomes aren't good because chinuch is al pi darko. When schools take over the parents role, the al pi darko aspect is lost.

amother

Oatmeal

Sun, May 05 2024, 10:51 am

amother OP wrote:

No, because they arbitrarily decided to enforce mid year. They should make their stance very clear at the start of next year, but if they let things slide till now, it's unfair to take strong action without proper notice.

amother

Denim

Sun, May 05 2024, 10:54 am

amother Oatmeal wrote:

This school obviously considers it a standard and clearly stated so when the students applied. It may not meet your definition of a student standard, and it is your prerogative not to sent to the school.

From my discussion with other parents the majority are on board with this standard and it is a small minority of parents who feel they can make their own decision in contravention of the schools standards. A parent needs to make a decision. Either

A) choose a school that confirms with their personal standards

or

B) Make a cost benefit analysis and decide to send and conform to the schools standards even when they conflict with the parents because the overall chinuch package is worth the sacrifice

Choosing

C) a school that conflicts with the parents standards and constantly flouting the schools standards in favor of the parents standards is not a mehalech and will not lead to a successful chinuch experience in any school.

amother

Gray

Sun, May 05 2024, 10:55 am

amother Denim wrote:

Do you feel the same about Netflix, drinking, recreational drugs, boyfriends, etc? The school has no business with how the student comports herself as long as it is off of school grounds?

But are you really equating "driving a car" with teen girls watching Netflix, drinking, doing drugs, or having boyfriends? There are standard behaviors for a bas yisroel, and it's fair to expect students to follow them, and then there is a whole new level they are requiring. I never heard of a regulation against driving before (except maybe for chassidish women as a whole but nothing where women are allowed to drive and just their daughters can't until they graduate.)

This 100% intrudes on the home life. A second driver can be so helpful, and it's definitely stepping on family dynamics, not the student alone. I agree with others above who said that if something is negatively affecting a student's performance, you meet with her parents and address it on an individual level, not punish and restrict everyone across the board because some might abuse it.

amother

Oatmeal

Sun, May 05 2024, 10:57 am

UQT wrote:

I wonder how many parents who are horrified at the rule are Lakewood parents. Younger teens driving is not acceptable in most Lakewood schools - while in a place like Detroit or Cleveland it’s completely acceptable. This is a more minhag hamokom rule, most parents are secretly glad their 10th graders are not running around with cars. Would it be more convenient if my 17 year old drove? For sure. But I see the flip side so we follow the schools rule.

Just curious, why as a parent can't you set your own rule for when your kids start driving. Why do you need the school to do that for you.

I made it perfectly clear to my kids that they cannot drive until they finish school. It has nothing to do with the school - it is just me as the parent having the mindset that they are too young to drive beforehand. My kids got the message that it doesn't matter how many of their friends do drive before, or what other families do, this is our home rule. They accepted it and dealt with it.

Why can't we be parents without the school doing the work for us?

amother

Denim

Sun, May 05 2024, 10:58 am

amother Oatmeal wrote:

Are you an out of town more mixed community parent? The overwhelming majority of Lakewood parents would not send to a school that espoused your attitude. Perhaps out of town, boyfriends and Netflix are the parent’s prerogative but that is not how things works in the yeshivish beis yaakov system and few parents would want it to be that way.