Do you buy sold chametz?

Comptroller

Wed, May 08 2024, 4:36 am

amother Royalblue wrote:

We do not sell chametz gamur and we do not buy chametz that was sold. It does limit our shopping options after Pesach but we have a few options.

Currently, we live in Lakewood but we did it when we lived in Israel, too. I know many people that do it. I did not grow up with this chumra, it’s something my dh learned about in yeshiva. He is very careful about it. I try to be careful for me and the kids, but will buy certain things and just mark them that they aren’t for him. I have friends who only are careful for their husbands.

The reason, if I remember correctly, has to do with the fact that selling chametz is loophole/kulla and although the sale is valid halachikly, it is also kind of a joke.

I’m willing to answer any specific questions to the best of my ability.

Cookies or crackers have a very long shelf life

How can you be sure, when shopping in January, that it was not sold the pessach before?
And if it comes to the shop after pessach, how can you be sure it was not produced before pessach, sold by the factory, rebought and sold to the store?

amother

Geranium

Wed, May 08 2024, 4:37 am

amother Royalblue wrote:

So, where do you buy food for the next few weeks?
I once worked with someone who only bought food from a certain Chinese grocery store after pesach.

amother

Royalblue

Wed, May 08 2024, 4:38 am

amother Geranium wrote:

Yes, I have heard of this . Recently I realized that the bakeries, pizza stores and bagel shops are all baking right after pesach so they obviously have flour- which they sold- in order to begin baking right away. If they are selling their flour, I can buy food that was properly sold over pesach.
I live in Lakewood and many grocery stores have sales on chometz items that were sold over pesach. The new items all have a sticker stating that it was baked after pesach.

Most of the bakeries have a set up with the flour company that they don’t actually own the flour till they move it into he kitchen. The storage area is owned by the flour company (if the flour gets damaged/infested in the storage area, the flour company takes the loss, not the bakery). This means they are not selling the flour, they are buying it after Pesach from the flour company (non-Jewish owned). This is not true for pizza shops & bagel stores (thus dh doesn’t eat bagels or pizza until we can verify they got new flour from a non-Jew).

amother

Gardenia

Wed, May 08 2024, 4:38 am

Comptroller wrote:

Well I suppose your supermarket is too far away from my place for me to go shopping there.

I rely on the kosher supermarkets in my town that they sell kehalacha.

what I wanted to say: among the things I find in my supermarket, I have no way of knowing which were there before pessach and sold and which were brought in after pessach.

In communities that are strict (I live in one but we aren’t makpid and follow some of the logic mentioned above- that I rather know about the sale etc) most ppl shop only at Jewish stores and look for clear markings- there are stickers that say “baked after pesach/gebakt noch pesach/ neefa leachar hapesach” on everything from snack bags to cereals when they get out. In addition there are lists of what non Jewish stores were looked into - down to nitty gritty ownership details so that ppl know where to buy.

If anyone here is from monsey that’s why ShopRite was so popular motzei pesach- it was completely owned by a non Jew so ppl that were makpid rushed there to stock up on cereals etc. because they couldn’t get that from Jewish stores.

amother

Pumpkin

Wed, May 08 2024, 4:39 am

Comptroller wrote:

Presumably, it was produced by a jewish firm, who then sold it to the non-jewish supermarket, where it was over Pessach, from where I bought it after pessach. So it was sold to a non-jew before pessach and I bought it after pessach.

Many kosher products are not produced by Jewish companies. Even if you are makpid about pas yisroel, items like beer, soy sauce, licorice, pasta are chametz gamur and usually not manufactured by yidden when sold in non-Jewish stores.

amother

Mauve

Wed, May 08 2024, 4:40 am

essie14 wrote:

I have no idea how you could do this in Israel. Every store that I shop in has an ishur that they sold their chametz and all the chametz shelves were covered all Pesach.

I know MANY people who keep this in Israel. The companies produce new food right after pesach and they are all labelled as 'baked after Pesach etc.'. In the charedi areas this is really common. The food that was sold over pesach is often discounted since there are less buyers.

We are fine buying the sold items, but I check for the stamp anyway since I like to get the freshest food!

amother

Gardenia

Wed, May 08 2024, 4:41 am

Comptroller wrote:

People check the production dates and wait to buy things that were made after. They stock up right after at a store that’s owned by no Jews.

singleagain

Wed, May 08 2024, 4:43 am

Comptroller wrote:

Tristate area kosher grocery chain.

If you really wanted to know you could ask when was the last time we got something delivered. That's easy enough to look up. I can tell you we got one case of 12 the day after pesach, but if there are 14 PCs on the shelf I can't tell you which two boxes were in the shelf all pesach.

I can say that all groceries are supposed to rotate their stock with the oldest stock at the front of the shelf. If that actually always happens I can't promise bc things can get unintentionally moved around the shelf.

amother

Royalblue

Wed, May 08 2024, 4:44 am

Comptroller wrote:

This is actually something dh has started worrying about lately. He actually will find out from the companies when new stuff is available (he has access to people in the industry through his job).

He asked a shailah a few years ago and was told it is better to buy pas palter than to buy sold chametz so if we can’t get certain things we will buy non-Jewish brands (we usually would be makpid on pas yisroel and buy heimish brands for most things).

amother

Pumpkin

Wed, May 08 2024, 4:46 am

Comptroller wrote:

Kashrus agencies know the production process and general turnaround time for products. They give guidelines for buying after Pesach. So just like we can shop in store that don't properly sell their chometz after a certain time, I imagine people who don't eat sold chometz can also buy products from any store after a specific time period.

amother

Mauve

Wed, May 08 2024, 4:47 am

To add to my previous post - to my knowledge this practice is actually more widespread in Israel than anywhere else because it is so much easier to keep it here.

Some of the big chain stores in the charedi areas slowly stop stocking the chametz items as it gets closer to pesach, because they don't want to be left with overstock and I guess it also helps give shelf space for all the Pesach items.

The days after Pesach, you already find items baked after pesach and everything is very clearly labelled.

In contrast to where I grew up - the few people who were careful with this literally didn't buy chametz in stores until after shavuos because that's how long it took to get the deliveries from abroad with the fresh kosher food.

Elfrida

Wed, May 08 2024, 4:47 am

amother Mauve wrote:

During the first corona lockdown, just before Pesach, Osem was commenting how they normally slowed their production right down before pesach, because there was almost no demand. Then suddenly the shelves were empty from all the panic buying. The spokesman said he would never have expected such demand, so close to Pesach.

In a normal year, production slows right down, and even in the shops the supply is minimal. Then, they swing back into full production shortly after havdallah. Within a couple of days, the shelves are full of pasta labelled with flour ground after Pesach. Crackers and bread are even quicker.

Sometimes you have to be selective, and and it takes a little while to get fully stocked, but products from after Pesach are available very soon.

amother

Royalblue

Wed, May 08 2024, 4:48 am

amother Geranium wrote:

So, where do you buy food for the next few weeks?
I once worked with someone who only bought food from a certain Chinese grocery store after pesach.

We stock up on heimish products from the local ShopRite right after Pesach (it is owned by a non-Jew) and buy other things from stores that are owned by non-Jews and use non-Jewish distributors (right now mostly Walmart, but also a few others).

singleagain

Wed, May 08 2024, 4:50 am

amother Royalblue wrote:

The reason, if I remember correctly, has to do with the fact that selling chametz is loophole/kulla and although the sale is valid halachikly, it is also kind of a joke.

It's still legal to do so. Selling chametz was specially instituted so ppl would not lose money over pesach... I mean we are talking about the parnassah of yidden

It's legal to move money into a trust to not have to pay certain taxes .. is that a joke?

Comptroller

Wed, May 08 2024, 4:54 am

amother Mauve wrote:

I suppose they will sell the "baked after pessach" stuff right after pessach, and then when people think enough time has passed, they put the sold stuff back on the shelves and no one is the wiser.

amother

Mauve

Wed, May 08 2024, 4:55 am

amother Royalblue wrote:

The reason, if I remember correctly, has to do with the fact that selling chametz is loophole/kulla and although the sale is valid halachikly, it is also kind of a joke.

.

I really don't believe this is the reason. It's clearly brought down in gemara about selling chametz. Obviously there are those who hold it's better not, but no one considers it as a joke.

(I'm sure you rely on a pruzbal by shmitta year for example, rather than cancelling all debts owed to you. There are plenty of other examples of doing these kinds of things.)

It's probably more along the lines of being worried if anything goes wrong with the validity of the sale, seeing as chamutz on Pesach is such a strong issur.

We personally hold that it's better not to sell our own chamutz gamur, but buying from a store who did is fine. (since the issue of having chametz in your own possession over Pesach is much stricter than the fact of using it after Pesach.)

amother

Geranium

Wed, May 08 2024, 4:59 am

amother Royalblue wrote:

I heard that it’s okay to buy from amazon as long as it ships from an amazon warehouse and not a third party.

Elfrida

Wed, May 08 2024, 5:08 am

Comptroller wrote:

I suppose they will sell the "baked after pessach" stuff right after pessach, and then when people think enough time has passed, they put the sold stuff back on the shelves and no one is the wiser.

No. People also check codes and expiry dates.

Apart from which, this would completely destroy trust between the retailer and customer.

Not everyone is strict about this, and many people have no problem buying (or keeping in their house) chametz that was sold on Pesach. People who are strict, know how to check.

The larger national companies probably channel chametz items from before Pesach to the less frum areas. There's nothing wrong with doing that, as long as the company sells their chametz.

someone

Wed, May 08 2024, 5:37 am

Comptroller wrote:

I suppose they will sell the "baked after pessach" stuff right after pessach, and then when people think enough time has passed, they put the sold stuff back on the shelves and no one is the wiser.

Yes, this is exactly what they do. There are also stories of companies that make stuff before pesach and label it "baked after pesach 5784 (or whatever the year is)"
That's why the only way to be actually makpid on this is to check production numbers and expiry dates and things

Comptroller

Wed, May 08 2024, 5:40 am

amother Pumpkin wrote:

So, then, what good will it do?
Then it's just a fantasy...